User Tag List

View Poll Results: Should sex offenders be treated humanely (in prison)?

Voters
68. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes.

    50 73.53%
  • No.

    13 19.12%
  • Unsure.

    5 7.35%
First 89101112 Last

Results 91 to 100 of 196

  1. #91
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,584

    Default

    1. Here is a report made by the Commission on Safety and Abuse in the prison systems made in 2006. Commission on Safety and Abuse in America's Prisons


    2. 3.
    Quote Originally Posted by Just Detention International
    JDI works to end the sexual abuse of all detainees, in the U.S. and internationally. When the government takes away someone’s freedom, it has a responsibility to protect that person’s safety. All inmates have the right be treated with dignity. No matter what crime someone has committed, sexual violence must never be part of the penalty.

    The reason JDI does this work is simple: sexual abuse in detention is a perversion of justice and an affront to our society’s essential values. But sexual abuse in detention is preventable. It is possible to put an end to this type of violence. JDI is the only organization in the U.S., and perhaps in the world, that focuses exclusively on ending rape behind bars.
    4.
    Quote Originally Posted by Washington Post
    the Bureau of Justice Statistics ... estimates that at least 88,500 adults were sexually abused in U.S. prisons and jails in the past year. This number represents 4.4 percent of prison inmates and 3.1 percent of those in jail but fails to include assaults on minors, which a January survey suggested was more than 12 percent -- one in eight.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  2. #92
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont think anyone is condoning it, like I said in my first post, in fact I think its really stupid to conflate the natural and logical consequences of locking up a lot of sex offenders together and rape as a deliberate public policy.
    Where we disagree is that rape is a "natural and logical consequence of locking up a lot of sex offenders together". The prison guards are there to keep order. They deliberately chose to NOT do their job because of their personal feelings toward a prisoner. I don't believe guards can stop all rapes, but in cases where they could but choose not to, that is corrupt.

    Its not just desserts but it is a natural and logical consequence of warehousing a lot of these individuals together, they carry on like they always have, preying upon the weakest and most vulnerable, out in the world it was defenceless kiddies, in the big house it could just be the child rapist themselves that's at the lowest point in the "food chain".
    You seem to be ignoring some important details in this case. There was nothing "natural" about this attack. The guards deliberately allowed it to happen. This wasn't a case of "letting nature take its course".
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #93
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,584

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    ...That's why I don't take a kind or forgiving view to a certain type of violator. I think they deserve zero compassion for the problems in society that they perpetuate, and creating a culture that attempts to "nurture" them I think possibly only will result in their thinking that what they do is sort of okay and acceptable, when it is extremely, extremely permanently damaging to the victims. I think too many child molesters get away with what they do to begin with.
    I am so sorry to read what happened in your experience, and a response of anger and desiring justice makes a lot of sense. I personally don't think any victim needs to forgive their violator. And society sending signals that it is okay to violate or to be nurturing in a disabling way would be scarring to a victim, especially if they are not given support. In topics like these I think at the core there is much more agreement than disagreement, but in application and the way words are used can make it appear that there is more conflict than is actually the case. I suspect everyone agrees that molestation is a heinous crime that must stop, and that society should not nurture these tendencies or exacerbate violating behaviors of any kind. The differences come in knowing what is the most effective way to achieve that end. Do you mirror back and give the perpetrator a piece of what they did? An eye for an eye? Many have thought that.

    My concern with reacting in violence is that I tend to interpret that as condoning violating behaviors on a larger scale. It should not be tolerated from the molester, rapist, prison guard, or anyone. I see it as the primary way it is perpetuated, amplified, endless. Proving which approach is more effective probably cannot be accomplished in this thread because it's doubtful that humanity itself knows that answer, but it is important to continually increase understanding of these destructive processes and continually refine what is most effective in putting them to an end.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its not just desserts but it is a natural and logical consequence of warehousing a lot of these individuals together, they carry on like they always have, preying upon the weakest and most vulnerable, out in the world it was defenceless kiddies, in the big house it could just be the child rapist themselves that's at the lowest point in the "food chain".
    I agree, but that contextual change determines a lot about the nature of that punishment. It ceases to be the righteous indignation of a suffering victim and becomes far more parallel to the original violation. This is not morally based or elevated, or trying to right the wrongs in the world, but simply another crime of opportunity. It is not impossible that some of those rapists abused or mistreated their own children. I don't think I'd want one of those guards or rapists to be my father.

    It's true that in violent systems it isn't the strongest, the most threatening that is targeted, but the weakest prisoner and the one without comradry and defense. While it is true that molester crimes are some of the worst, in the new context of prison they are not a threat, but are the targets that are easiest to abuse in that environment. More often than what we deal with in this case is that the worst "unofficial" punishments are directed from worst to least offender. That system exactly mirror how abusers are created. They are placed in an environment of oppression, but are able to act out oppressive behaviors to regain a sense of personal power. That is how sadism forms and a prison system which allows the continued reinforcement of that process is making super-criminals rather than focusing on solving the original problems.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  4. #94
    Senior Member Moonstone3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    9, 5
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    187

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Do you also condone the rape of thieves in prison? What about drug addicts?
    No, I don't. Back as Lark said, there is a food chain, and a natural order. Has anyone put any merit on the fact that the crime community views sex crimes as the low of the lows? We're not talking about thieves and drug addicts here. We're talking about people who commit sex crimes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    These people also commit their crimes knowing that they could get raped in prison.
    Well, then, they knew what was coming, and as I said before, it wasn't enough was it? So what is?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Sorry, I just don't buy this argument. People should not be getting raped in prison, period. We should never condone it. What we should do is properly punish people under the law. If you don't like the law, get it changed.
    And here's a paradox:What you seem to be missing, is I don't condone sex offenders. These jailers are sex offenders in my eyes, as well. They would do well to serve a punishment for their behavior. However, this is jail, we're talking about, not a picnic. I don't sit and think how we can improve these people's lives while there are more kids being pulled apart at the seams. Should we concentrate on improving the prison system, or trying to prevent these horrific actions which are occurring all the time all over the world?
    We should properly punish people under the law then? :yim_rolling_on_the_
    Yes, I did that that. It didn't work out too well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    If you don't like the law, get it changed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonstone3 View Post
    If nothing less, maybe these offenders can look into a mirror when getting it back in return. Everyone likes their reflection, right? If they don't, maybe they would be more inclined to change it.
    And thanks for taking what I said, claiming it for your own, and flipping it back in my face. Yes, let me run out and change the judicial system real quick.
    Here's the difference. Let me sum this one up. Intent, to me, is half the action. Intent is a crime. What are the intents of sex offenders? Most people think it's sex, but it's actually a combo of sex- as a small percentage- with lots of power. Do they do things for justice,then? I doubt that. Animals have a natural tendency to level themselves out.
    'The key characteristic of predation however is the predator's direct impact on the prey population.'-www.reference.com/browse/Predation
    You're worried about the prey population of inmates, rather than children? Ingenious.
    As for the man that Fiery Phoenix mentioned-He had a good intent, after the fact, nonetheless, but a natural ordered intent.
    My advice, visit After Silence - A message board and chat room for rape, sexual assault, and sexual abuse survivors. (Powered by Invision Power Board) and read some bios, then see if you still think the same thing about humanity for sex offenders.
    What is normal to one, is incomprehensible to another.

    ALL anger in this world stems from a lack of control.


    All of reality bows to the illusion of life and death.

  5. #95
    Senior Member Moonstone3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    9, 5
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    187

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You seem to be ignoring some important details in this case. There was nothing "natural" about this attack. The guards deliberately allowed it to happen. This wasn't a case of "letting nature take its course".
    We are nature. Unfortunately, what humans do, usually as a collective whole, is nature, taking it's course.
    What is normal to one, is incomprehensible to another.

    ALL anger in this world stems from a lack of control.


    All of reality bows to the illusion of life and death.

  6. #96
    Senior Member Moonstone3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    9, 5
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    187

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Annwn View Post
    It's true that in violent systems it isn't the strongest, the most threatening that is targeted, but the weakest prisoner and the one without comradry and defense. While it is true that molester crimes are some of the worst, in the new context of prison they are not a threat, but are the targets that are easiest to abuse in that environment. More often than what we deal with in this case is that the worst "unofficial" punishments are directed from worst to least offender. That system exactly mirror how abusers are created. They are placed in an environment of oppression, but are able to act out oppressive behaviors to regain a sense of personal power. That is how sadism forms and a prison system which allows the continued reinforcement of that process is making super-criminals rather than focusing on solving the original problems.
    I can see what you're saying, but also,
    It isn't the strongest, the most threatening that is targeted, but the weakest CHILD and the one without comradry and defense.
    What is normal to one, is incomprehensible to another.

    ALL anger in this world stems from a lack of control.


    All of reality bows to the illusion of life and death.

  7. #97
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,584

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonstone3 View Post
    I can see what you're saying, but also,
    It isn't the strongest, the most threatening that is targeted, but the weakest CHILD and the one without comradry and defense.
    That is the parallel I was addressing, yes.

    It is important that there is not an overlayed assumption that rejecting inhumane treatment of a violater in some way suggests less love, awareness, or protection for a victimized child. Categorizing the argument in that manner certainly justifies the motivation for inhumane treatment of molesters, but it is a false assumption to build on. The willingness to reject violence in a context where there is guilt can also imply an amplified desire to reject it in contexts of innocent victims. Each violator was once a child, and possibly violated. What if one of those children harmed grows up still broken and ill from it, and they violate someone, end up in prison, and finally raped. Did we protect the child?

    How much suffering is inflicted upon a violator is not a measure of how much a person cares about the suffering they caused. There can be an element of that in a victim's response to cruelty as they are building to regain a sense of power, but it can also be a measure of how permissive one's attitude is towards violence in general. What about a complete rejection of inhumane behaviors? If it can apply to the guilty, how much more would it apply to the innocent?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  8. #98
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    24,060

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm unsure what you're trying to say but your sympathy is obvious, is that all you wanted to do with that post?
    You've completely misread me. Your question just seemed really pointless- "Is this guy telling the truth about being tortured in prison?" is a dumb question when it's completely obvious from his current condition that he was tortured in prison. He's comatose. He can't fake that.

    What you're reading as sympathy is actually objectivity. I don't think anyone deserves to be tortured or raped, even those who have tortured or raped someone themselves. Of course what he did was abhorrent. Sexual abuse should not be dealt with lightly. His prison sentence was the proper consequence- if it wasn't long enough, then we should be working towards stronger consequences under the law. The prison guards who allowed, encouraged, and even perpetrated further inhumane treatment took it upon themselves to punish him outside the law. That shouldn't be dealt with lightly, either.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  9. #99

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Where we disagree is that rape is a "natural and logical consequence of locking up a lot of sex offenders together". The prison guards are there to keep order. They deliberately chose to NOT do their job because of their personal feelings toward a prisoner. I don't believe guards can stop all rapes, but in cases where they could but choose not to, that is corrupt.

    You seem to be ignoring some important details in this case. There was nothing "natural" about this attack. The guards deliberately allowed it to happen. This wasn't a case of "letting nature take its course".
    Do you understand what a natural or logical consequence is?

    Natural Consequences - WikEd

    For instance, a school requires students not to run in hall ways. A child bumps into another child because of running and hurts himself. A teacher might want to use the natural consequence to emphasize the reason of the rule and remind the student to follow the rule on the spot.
    There is no implication that it is natural for one person to rape another, that's not what I'm suggesting at all and its totally out of keeping with my perspective as easily discerned from my posts in total in this thread.

    Now to selectively cite this or that part with a particular spin does not benefit the dialogue nor does it particularly make your point well and its not something I would expect. Perhaps in a conversation where things can become heated or where other factors are at stake, in an online discussion where there is time and space to take a breath, think, reflect and then respond, surely not.

    I seriously feel it remains to be seen the true extent to which the prison guards have neglected their duties and precisely why, I very much doubt that it would amount to an unofficial prison policy, tacitly agreed and operating like an open conspiracy. Imply such serves who? To what end?

    The trouble about prisons is that they are full of criminals, criminals behave in a certain way, that much is surely beyond question, it is why they are taken from normal, lawful society and placed apart from it. It is surely not a surprise that they behave towards one another as they did towards anyone else.

    Perhaps the existence of continued predatory behaviour among inmates does retard or arrest any rehabilitation, if you believe in that kind of thing, perhaps in that respect this prison has failed or prisons per se fail but in respect of keeping this prepetrator from his original quary and prey or victims or their kin or any other innocent and lawful individual or child it has succeeded. For me that's enough you know.

  10. #100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Annwn View Post
    More often than what we deal with in this case is that the worst "unofficial" punishments are directed from worst to least offender. That system exactly mirror how abusers are created. They are placed in an environment of oppression, but are able to act out oppressive behaviors to regain a sense of personal power. That is how sadism forms and a prison system which allows the continued reinforcement of that process is making super-criminals rather than focusing on solving the original problems.
    I dont believe there should be unofficial punishments or informally sanctioned mistreatment, abuse or rape. It shouldnt happen. On the other hand to presume that its even possible that can be completely eliminated is utopian, naive and simply wrong headed.

    It can not be eliminated in society at large, hence the need for prisons in the first place. Society is not composed completely of criminal individuals. So to suggest that with an even more loaded deck, in the form of a completely criminal population, it would be more feasible to completely control criminality and eliminate it is simply, well, fantastic really.

    I do agree with you that this is precisely how sadism operates, I dont believe that the prison system, being imperfect, born of imperfect society, not being perfectable and which shouldnt seek to be perfectionist, will be able to eliminate it. Lets be clear here, we're not talking about a deliberate policy, but shit happens.

Similar Threads

  1. Obama says marijuana should be treated like ‘cigarettes or alcohol’
    By Beargryllz in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-25-2016, 06:38 PM
  2. Should access to the internet be a human right?
    By EcK in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 02-28-2012, 02:03 PM
  3. Supreme Court: Sex offenders can be held indefinitely
    By Lateralus in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 05-18-2010, 06:37 PM
  4. How literally should the Bible be interpreted?
    By Kiddo in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 130
    Last Post: 02-02-2008, 07:32 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO