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  1. #51
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Why does money have intrinsic value instead of exchange value?
    Money doesn't have intrinsic value. Neither does labor. At a low level, it's all determined by demand for product. Supply and demand is economics, not just a part of it.
    You lose.

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  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    Money doesn't have intrinsic value. Not anymore anyway. Coins do. Bills don't.
    Neither do coins, unless you're talking sovereigns but they're just vanity jewelry for the libertarian crowd. Believe it. Whether you like it or not money is a reflection of both business and consumer confidence in an economy, to a lesser extent but still important confidence in the state.

  3. #53
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Neither do coins, unless you're talking sovereigns but they're just vanity jewelry for the libertarian crowd. Believe it. Whether you like it or not money is a reflection of both business and consumer confidence in an economy, to a lesser extent but still important confidence in the state.
    Right. I thought about it a little and corrected myself. Coins don't really either, it's just more stable value. The only thing that finally determines the value of a product is whether people want it, and what they're willing to pay for it. Labor itself is a product, its value is determined by what the employer is willing to pay.
    You lose.

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  4. #54
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Marx's talk about a dictatorship of the proletariat is, like all of his work, written with the novelists or poets eye, its melodramatic romanticism and it is meant as "dictatorship" in the sense of a pervasive, iron consensus.

    There's no other way of reconciling those passages of his work with his journalism which indicates just how impassioned he would become by democratic uprisings or upheavels, such as the Paris Commune, he even commended a tax strike at one point for this very reason and all of his scathing satirical remarks are directed at dictatorial behaviour.
    .
    This sort of reminds me of when people try to "refute" Nietzsche. In response I always think, "refute? he was a LITERARY 'philosopher'! He's outside the realm of literal, exact and specific philosophy". I feel much the same way about Marx .

  5. #55
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Your thread is an example of the mudpie argument

    [YOUTUBE="UltE6U4t8Vc"]Mudpie arguement[/YOUTUBE]
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

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  6. #56
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yenom View Post
    Your thread is an example of the mudpie argument
    No it isn't. Unfortunately for you, I actually know how Marx sidestepped that argument, so I addressed that as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by me View Post
    Well, moving on... Marx actually caught on to that little snag, and added the amendment that this went only for socially useful labor. Since it's somewhat difficult to quantify social usefulness, I'm gonna assume this means demand. Ergo, he's assuming that two articles with the same demand will be worth the same given the same labor time. This isn't so bad (though it's steering a little close to the neoclassicist theory of marginal utility -- one that most Marxists reject), but it's still not really up to snuff, because it ignores the importance of capital (as in physical capital) in production. If I make a chair by hand in two days by hand and you carve an identical chair in an hour then the two chairs are obviously worth the same. And even if mine is worth more (it likely is because it's handmade), it'd have to be worth some 20 times more, at least, for it to be worth the same, labor-time-wise, as yours (not likely).
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