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  1. #31
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    what about the yellow revolution

    urine-powered generators
    What about the brown revolution?

    Dung Beetle: The methane gas powered car that leaves nothing to waste | Mail Online

    In this case, going down the crapper might not necessarily be a bad thing!
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  2. #32
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I would rather replace corporations altogether with cooperatives.
    I'm trying to suggest something to you that will actually work. A cooperative is a poor model whenever labor is the most valuable resource. (By contrast something like a credit union can work, because in this case labor is not the most valuable resource.) For most modern businesses labor is the most important resource.

    However publicly traded coorporations are something like dinosaurs. They are large, powerful and going extinct. The types of companies that will replace them will be smaller and more specialized. They will also find more effective methods of utilizing their labor. If you can start a company like this, then you will help hasten the disapperance of publicly traded corporations.
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  3. #33
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Then get off your ass and found a 501c3 non-profit manufacturing collective. You might study the kibbutz model; it has proven effective.
    Non-profit?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I'm trying to suggest something to you that will actually work. A cooperative is a poor model whenever labor is the most valuable resource. (By contrast something like a credit union can work, because in this case labor is not the most valuable resource.) For most modern businesses labor is the most important resource.
    A credit union is also a consumer cooperateive. So it's kind of different to compare to a worker cooperative, for example.
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  4. #34
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    First, I rather seriously doubt the carrying capacity of planet Earth is so low, considering present technology. With modern farming practices, the American Midwest alone has enough arable land to comfortably sustain the whole world population -- all seven billion of us. And that's not counting that Africa, for example (the second-largest continent in the planet) only utilizes 16% of its own arable land. The problem is that present technology is seriously underutilized for conservation purposes. For example, we could be recycling greywater and blackwater and using power generators to desalinate saltwater.

    As for infinite growth, it is perfectly sustainable so long as it depends on total factor productivity, rather than growth in production inputs. That is, technology-driven growth is infinitely sustainable, and accounts for about half of present global GDP growth (and as much as 80% in developed nations -- raw inputs are actually declining in the US).
    Well with carrying capacity I did mention natural capacity without aid by modern technology, therefore the carrying capacity can vary. You are right in that alot of arable land is prohibited because of conservation. Add the fact that we are going to peak in most of our natural resources, for instance peak soil:
    Peak Dirt (aka Peak Soil) is very real. Or rather the underlying problem of soil erosion is very real. Industrial agriculture with its "fencerow-to-fencerow" monocropping techniques and mass applications of synthetic fertilizer further exacerbates the problem (although there's a peak for fertilizer, too -- Peak Phosphorus).
    Iowa has some of the best topsoil in the world. In the past century, half of it’s been lost, from an average of 18 to 10 inches deep (Pate 2004, Klee 1991).

    Productivity drops off sharply when topsoil reaches 6 inches or less, the average crop root zone depth (Sundquist 2005).

    Crop productivity continually declines as topsoil is lost and residues are removed. (Al-Kaisi May 2001, Ball 2005, Blanco-Canqui 2006, BOA 1986, Calviño 2003, Franzleubbers 2006, Grandy 2006, Johnson 2004, Johnson 2005, Miranowski 1984, Power 1998, Sadras 2001, Troeh 2005, Wilhelm 2004).

    On over half of America’s best crop land, the erosion rate is 27 times the natural rate, 11,000 pounds per acre (NCRS 2006). The natural, geological erosion rate is about 400 pounds of soil per acre per year (Troeh 2005). Some is due to farmers not being paid enough to conserve their land, but most is due to investors who farm for profit. Erosion control cuts into profits.

    Erosion is happening ten to twenty times faster than the rate topsoil can be formed by natural processes (Pimentel 2006). That might make the average person concerned. But not the USDA -- they’ve defined erosion as the average soil loss that could occur without causing a decline in long term productivity.

    As for technological growth, it is thought by some(such as Ray Kurzweil) to actually be increasing exponentially, but we still need an oil based infrastructure to transition to another energy paradigm, if we waste all the cheap oil we have left, it will be very difficult to start to ease off of oil because it takes time to build a new infrastructure based on a different energy resource. It is very difficult to imagine any kind of technology-driven growth without oil, coal, and natural gas. Oil is the foundation of our modren way of life, it has greatly raised our living standard. It remains to be seen if people can "invent" their way out of this problem. I believe solar and nuclear energy is our best feasible answer to oil, but we will need a few decades to to develop a new infrastructure(and technology) based off these energy resources.
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  5. #35
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Non-profit?



    A credit union is also a consumer cooperateive. So it's kind of different to compare to a worker cooperative, for example.
    I see what you mean. You could have a successful worker cooperative by doing what I say. Start a privately owned coorporation where all the employees have partial ownership (and only the employees have ownership). In this case there is still a potential profit to motivate people to work.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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  6. #36
    Senior Member Kephalos's Avatar
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    What does the original post mean by pluralism? Should the trend be toward more uniformity? There are less plural political systems, like one-party dictatorships, or less ethnically diverse places.

  7. #37
    ¡MI TORTA! Amethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kephalos View Post
    What does the original post mean by pluralism? Should the trend be toward more uniformity? There are less plural political systems, like one-party dictatorships, or less ethnically diverse places.
    Oh...oops...I thought I said 'lack of'...

    I may or may not have been dozing off to sleep at that time. Good call.

    I meant to say that pluralism seems to be at a downfall, or at least that's what the media seems to express. People seem more ignorant about what this country was built upon, the freedoms the Bill of Rights have given their citizens. Freedom of religion, for example. How can one say that they're 100% behind what the Constitution states, but refuses anyone to build a mosque anywhere (I'm not talking about the New York one...that can be saved for another thread).

  8. #38
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    I think pluralism is a complete failure, frankly; and I'm surprised anyone ever thought any differently. The majority of people are morons.
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  9. #39
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I'm in favor of a sort of amalgamation rather than pluralism myself. But that might be even less popular here.

    It's basicallly that liberal elements want association (specifically pluralism), conservative elements want alienation (seemingly on all demographic matters), and they are fighting to claim the status quo, which is currently centered on assimilation.
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  10. #40
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    I think pluralism is a complete failure, frankly; and I'm surprised anyone ever thought any differently. The majority of people are morons.
    What, all ideas and viewpoints are not created equal under our loving God?
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