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  1. #61
    Senior Member ubee0173's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    ^

    It's only a problem in the US because there isn't such a thing as US culture and it's a mix of things. It's too young a country. My country is 900 years old and doesn't face that same problem. You walk 30 miles and you have completely different people, with completely different accents and gastronomy and customs.

    I'm not saying to rid everyone of their culture. I'm just saying that the ideal of country and harmonious cultural diversity isn't as feasible as most people would like to think, unless there are broad commonalities between the different cultures.

    A person likes to live in a neighborhood and identify with the people around them. I mean what makes a country a country, if the country has no cultural identity?
    makes much more sense when you put it that way. i dunno, i like to be in neighborhoods where i can be immersed in cultures im unfamiliar with- the more you know about everyone the harder it is to hate anyone. i say we demolish borders, hugs and candy all around. but my fantasy utopia and reality are not usually the same thing.
    I will buy you a drink and I'll tell you what I think, and tomorrow, in the morning, I won't be sorry that I didn't sleep.


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  2. #62
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but it's tough to agree with that, coming from the Old World. Anyone can be an american.
    I find that to be a positive trait. The US is inclusive (right-wing nutjobs aside). Europe...they're heavy on rhetoric but light on practice.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #63
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    This is pretty ironic, coming from a Frenchman. Why are you guys so protective of the French language then? Why don't we all just speak English if we value communication and similarity so highly? Or is it only French culture that has currency?

    Sounds boring to me. Viva la difference!

    Not just boring - dangerous. Why is Scots Gaelic practically extinct? Because our English occupiers thought much as you do and outlawed it.
    I speak english, that's how we're communicating now.
    We wouldn't be able to do that if i didn't. And you couldn't enjoy diversity if the disparities were too strong, as this generally lead to conflicts in ressource acquisition and retention.

    What next? should I tell you how to open a door so you can get self righteous about that too ?!
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  4. #64
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    The Social Contract includes making provision for people who cannot contribute to society in an effective way. And it relies on the rule of law, as I said earlier - which includes having equal rights irrespective of background. Don't forget the Nazis also exterminated disabled/gay/other minorities. It wasn't about racism. It was about maniacal abuse of power. Intolerance breeds intolerance. That seems to be happening in France, sadly.
    I didn't anything about wether they can or cannot contribute to society, I said to 'try to' contribute. Laws are about action but also intent I'll remind you. Especially when it comes to contracts. There's a world of difference between someone not being able to contribute and someone refusing to contribute yet expecting some of the advantages of contribution.

    The nazis not being about racism?
    Now that's a good one. I'm sure they secretly accused the german of all evils but were too polite to share they opinions.
    And really, 'maniacal' abuse of power ? I don't think we're anywhere close to that level of zeal. As I said, there are romas everywhere in Paris. It isn't about romas, it's about non citizens parasiting the system. The medias/politicians/public made it about romas to ellicit an emotional response until it turned into the usual feedback loop system where you don't know who's the dupe anymore.

    And the argument about "little leads to too much which is very bad indeed" is applicable to just about anything, including vitamin C and idiocy.

    You talk about rights but forget that rights also means duties. And by duties I don't mean some fucked up 19th century sense of patriotism but, as stated before, a simple two ways contract.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #65
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    Article 1.

    All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
    Parasitism isn't exactly 'acting in a spirit of brotherhood'. Arguments go both ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    Article 2.

    Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
    One could argue that it's always more cost efficient and expedient to conduct one actions concerning individuals from a common environment rather than 30 individuals from completly unrelated environments when expulsing them. .[/QUOTE]
    And as I said again and again, there's a shitload of romas in parisian streets. They aren't being hunted down randomly based on being romas. But it's not insane to assume that they'd share traits making them more likely, as a group, to contain people having adopted a parasitic (unilateral) approach to ressource gathering. And given that it's a culture that is rather 'mobile' to say the least, only a decisive 'round up' type action could work efficiently as they'd have been likely perhaps to fade into the background otherwise.


    Article 5.

    No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
    There was no torture, no coal trains or anything. They were sent back by plane and the authorities were instructed to handle these people humanly I'm assuming. If you have any information contrary to these expectations feel free to share them. I'd be the first one to be discontented: I'm paying for their salary as a tax payer.



    Article 9.

    No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
    Why would it be arbitrary?
    The freedom to stay on the territory also means that they have a duty not to limit the freedom of other people on said territory, so to try to participate in the country's economical activity at least. That has nothing to do with denying their rights, it's not giving their rights priority over the rights of french citizens.

    Article 13.

    (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
    (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
    It's a right. You have the right to earn money and do the pursuit of happiness thing: it doesn't mean that you should have happiness and cash handed to you.

    First of all, racism and xenophobia are not the same thing. Racism is the belief that inherent differences between races determine cultural or individual achievement. I never said anything about racism. I said that France has some xenophobic tendencies.

    Xenophobia is the fear, distrust, and/or hatred of foreign/different cultures or people. When a nation-state is described as xenophobic, it usually means that there exists a fear that the dominant culture will be overrun by "foreign" concepts.
    I know that, when i said 'xenophobia/racism " i meant either/and
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  6. #66
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ubee0173 View Post
    jesus- dont be so touchy; i love how you quoted 'damn europens' as though i offended you (but people go on and on about the roma like they arent even discussing people, but a raccoon infestation) but i shouldnt even be slightly offended, should i.
    You didn't offend me. I don't get offended that easily.
    And I certainly don't think of romas as a raccoon infestation or anything of that sort. When i'm talking of parasitism I mean parasitic behaviors in general. That's something individuals do, not 'groups'.

    Consciousness happens on the individual level, so conscious choice can only happen at that level. It would be silly to talk about a human group consciously choosing any particular ressource gathering strategy as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by ubee0173 View Post
    i am just as much english as i am native american, as much french as i am roma. im like a walking fucking U.N.! i fail to see how i am biased-
    Then your previous point about having some sort of authority because of your roma ancestry is void.
    Remember? Just after 'damn europeans'. :rolleyes2:
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  7. #67
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    What next? should I tell you how to open a door so you can get self righteous about that too ?!
    non sequitur

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    I didn't anything about wether they can or cannot contribute to society, I said to 'try to' contribute. Laws are about action but also intent I'll remind you. Especially when it comes to contracts. There's a world of difference between someone not being able to contribute and someone refusing to contribute yet expecting some of the advantages of contribution.
    Then is your argument that everyone who can contribute but does not should be deported? Why single out the Roma?
    The nazis not being about racism?
    Now that's a good one.
    Not exclusively, no. Hitler had lots of hang-ups.
    And really, 'maniacal' abuse of power ? I don't think we're anywhere close to that level of zeal.
    Don't misattribute my words. I was talking about fascism.
    It isn't about romas, it's about non citizens parasiting the system. The medias/politicians/public made it about romas to ellicit an emotional response until it turned into the usual feedback loop system where you don't know who's the dupe anymore.
    I guess they succeeded then...
    Kind of a Pyrrhic victory, wouldn't you say?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #68
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    non sequitur
    Or rather a simili, be it a bit hyperbolic. But hyperboles have their uses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I guess they succeeded then...
    Kind of a Pyrrhic victory, wouldn't you say?
    Wouldn't be the first time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Not exclusively, no. Hitler had lots of hang-ups.
    Yet you said that it wasn't about racism.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  9. #69
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    Can someone explain exactly how they are identifying the "Roma" in order to expel them? Are they going to do raids on suspected camps and deport everyone in one? Research genealogy to determine Roma heritage for all suspected? What if you're half-Roma?

  10. #70
    Senior Member ubee0173's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Then your previous point about having some sort authority (perspective) because of your roma ancestry is void.
    'perspective' being the operative word. i never claimed "authority", the point i was trying to get across was that i can see it from the roma perspectives, but that i am not biased to the one side because that is not all of who i am. this is the reason i dont usually get involved in these things. i said what i said and if it was taken at 100% face value instead of assigning meaning that wasnt there to words i wrote it wouldnt be questioned- and if i went through and picked and dissected some things you said it would appear as though you were speaking of an infestation. and honestly, arguing the point is not going to change the opinion of someone already set in what they believe, you seem more intent on arguing with everyone than trying to learn something or teach someone a valuable idea. as for your argument, you have said the same thing in a variety of ways, trying to bulldoze everyone from every angle- and im sure you will argue that too because you are the only person able to be right (which you will also argue out the other side of your mouth.) you create situations in which only you can be "correct." and back to the subject, only time will tell who is right on this one. i dont care if you think you re right because im going to continue believing what feels right. and everytime i hold my beliefs in spite of odds, wether it is in 6 months or 6 years, time has again and again proven me right. so, we shall see.
    I will buy you a drink and I'll tell you what I think, and tomorrow, in the morning, I won't be sorry that I didn't sleep.


    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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