User Tag List

First 45678 Last

Results 51 to 60 of 85

  1. #51
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    738
    Socionics
    ILE None
    Posts
    7,262

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    Back to the subject of the Roma, I definitely get that there are some aspects of Roma culture that are not in alignment with international human rights goals. They may engage in thievery, but I'm not sure how much of that perception is based on fact rather than stereotype. They certainly engage in begging, but one can hardly blame them when you see some of the conditions they live in (like Lark said, shanty towns). More troubling are the internal feuds and the attitude toward women and homosexuals. Certainly these issues should be addressed within the community, but marginalizing the community is not the way to go about it. To quote the old adage, You catch more flies with honey. Violating their human rights because their culture holds some beliefs that violate the universal concept of human rights is not acceptable. To quote another old adage, Two wrongs don't make a right!
    How is it a violation of human rights?
    Also, for living in France I can assure you that this is a country that gives you plenty of chances to climb the social elevator and have the sort of life you want to have. Obviously it's not the land of fairy either but that's normal in a world with limited ressources.
    We have free medical, mostly free education, governement helps and programs... People make their own choices. Living in a culture that promotes for example homophobia isn't an excuse for homophobia. Just as much as living in germany in the 1930ies/40ies wasn't an excuse for being a nazi.
    Nobody can force people to for example, go to college and try to get a job. And yes, some people are born with better living conditions and more encouragement to do so that others, but again, that's no excuse as long as one is willing to accept people have free will, especially in a country with such a strong welfare state.

    Living in a country is a social contract. It goes both ways.
    And relative to what some people said, it's just silly to, for example, compare throwing out romas by paying for their plane etc with xenophobia/racism driven behavior.
    The germans/nazis where racists because they hated people who contributed to society.
    The romas were thrown out on the grounds that they refused to contribute to society, this has nothing to do with how people feel or intolerance.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  2. #52
    Senior Member ubee0173's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    MBTI
    enfp
    Enneagram
    7
    Socionics
    iei
    Posts
    113

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I think the only real scenario where everything would run smoothly would be the annihilation of Roma identity and customs in a natural and progressive way. Either they are assimilated on the Borg that is the rest of society and start living like we do....or conflict will be eternal. They have to conform, as dirty as that sounds.

    Cultural identity is a fucked up issue. I don't even wanna know what it's like in the US and how that country survives. It's much more simpler here where I live where there isn't as much cultural diversity.
    yes- rid everyone of their culture sloooowly until everyone becomes a robot. and in the us, you have this horrid phenomenon of soft pasty people living in mcmansions driving nondescript cars and naming their kids the same thing and working in a grey cubical in a sea of 500 more grey cubicals never even realizing that the sea of cubicals is just a metaphor for thir boring meaningless life. jesusFUCK! maintaining a bit of cultural identity doesnt mean you can completley disregaurd social norms. but everyone deserves to know where they came from and be aware of any struggles their ancestors went through. and as for what its like in the u.s.- i dont clebrate bastille day or eat crumpets or sell clothes pegs. but i might drink all the firewater and steal your horses and children. just maybe seriously its just having a general awareness of your heritage while strolling through life as a pretty normal person. bob marley said "If you know your history/Then you would know where you're coming from/Then you wouldn't have to ask me/Who the 'eck do I think I am."
    and since its always said better in song- this is what too much assimilation sounds like "Little boxes on the hillside,
    Little boxes made of ticky tacky,1
    Little boxes on the hillside,
    Little boxes all the same.
    There's a green one and a pink one
    And a blue one and a yellow one,
    And they're all made out of ticky tacky
    And they all look just the same.

    And the people in the houses
    All went to the university,
    Where they were put in boxes
    And they came out all the same,
    And there's doctors and lawyers,
    And business executives,
    And they're all made out of ticky tacky
    And they all look just the same."
    I will buy you a drink and I'll tell you what I think, and tomorrow, in the morning, I won't be sorry that I didn't sleep.


    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #53
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ISFJ
    Posts
    6,020

    Default

    ^

    It's only a problem in the US because there isn't such a thing as US culture and it's a mix of things. It's too young a country. My country is 900 years old and doesn't face that same problem. You walk 30 miles and you have completely different people, with completely different accents and gastronomy and customs.

    I'm not saying to rid everyone of their culture. I'm just saying that the ideal of country and harmonious cultural diversity isn't as feasible as most people would like to think, unless there are broad commonalities between the different cultures.

    A person likes to live in a neighborhood and identify with the people around them. I mean what makes a country a country, if the country has no cultural identity?

  4. #54
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    3,532

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    How is it a violation of human rights?
    From the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
    Article 1.

    All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

    Article 2.

    Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.


    Article 5.

    No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

    Article 7.

    All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.


    Article 9.

    No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

    Article 13.

    (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
    (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.
    Etc, etc...

    Also, for living in France I can assure you that this is a country that gives ou plenty of chances to climb the social elevator and have the sort of life you want to have. Obviously it's not the land of fairy either but that's normal in a world with limited ressources.
    We have free medical, mostly free education, governement helps and programs...
    I'm aware of all of that - like I said, I think France is a great country. I lived there for awhile, too.

    And relative to what some people said, it's just silly to, for example, compare throwing out romas by paying for their plane etc with xenophobia/racism driven behavior.
    The germans/nazis where racists because they hated people who contributed to society.
    The romas were thrown out on the grounds that they refused to contribute to society, this has nothing to do with how people feel or intolerance.
    First of all, racism and xenophobia are not the same thing. Racism is the belief that inherent differences between races determine cultural or individual achievement. I never said anything about racism. I said that France has some xenophobic tendencies.

    Xenophobia is the fear, distrust, and/or hatred of foreign/different cultures or people. When a nation-state is described as xenophobic, it usually means that there exists a fear that the dominant culture will be overrun by "foreign" concepts.

    Again from Wiki:
    Xenophobia has two main objects:
    The first is a population group present within a society that is not considered part of that society. Often they are recent immigrants, but xenophobia may be directed against a group which has been present for centuries, or became part of this society through conquest and territorial expansion. This form of xenophobia can elicit or facilitate hostile and violent reactions, such as mass expulsion of immigrants, pogroms or in other cases, genocide.

    The second form of xenophobia is primarily cultural, and the objects of the phobia are cultural elements which are considered alien. All cultures are subject to external influences, but cultural xenophobia is often narrowly directed, for instance, at foreign loan words in a national language. It rarely leads to aggression against individual persons, but can result in political campaigns for cultural or linguistic purification. In addition, entire xenophobic societies tend not to be open to interactions from anything "outside" themselves, resulting in an isolationism that can further xenophobia.
    The bolded parts above can definitely be applied to France. If you don't like my burqa example, what about the language standardization after the Revolution, when children were punished for speaking their regional language/patois and made to feel shame and humiliation of their native language and thus identity, in the interest of promoting the "French" national identity?

    By the way, I'm not just ripping on France. I'm well aware that xenophobia and racism are problems in the US and oh yeah, everywhere else, as well.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

    My blog:
    TypeC: Adventures of an Introvert
    Wordpress: http://introvertadventures.wordpress.com/

  5. #55
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    738
    Socionics
    ILE None
    Posts
    7,262

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    From the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

    Etc, etc...


    I'm aware of all of that - like I said, I think France is a great country. I lived there for awhile, too.



    First of all, racism and xenophobia are not the same thing. Racism is the belief that inherent differences between races determine cultural or individual achievement. I never said anything about racism. I said that France has some xenophobic tendencies.

    Xenophobia is the fear, distrust, and/or hatred of foreign/different cultures or people. When a nation-state is described as xenophobic, it usually means that there exists a fear that the dominant culture will be overrun by "foreign" concepts.

    Again from Wiki:


    The bolded parts above can definitely be applied to France. If you don't like my burqa example, what about the language standardization after the Revolution, when children were punished for speaking their regional language/patois and made to feel shame and humiliation of their native language and thus identity, in the interest of promoting the "French" national identity?

    By the way, I'm not just ripping on France. I'm well aware that xenophobia and racism are problems in the US and oh yeah, everywhere else, as well.
    gotta go, i'll answer to that later. I don't like using my phone for long posts
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  6. #56
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    3,532

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post

    It's only a problem in the US because there isn't such a thing as US culture and it's a mix of things. It's too young a country.
    Yes, we're a young country, and yes, we're a multicultural country that for the most part allows people to retain their cultural heritage within our borders, but the US does also have an overarching "majority" culture. There are good things and bad things about it, like with any culture, and I certainly don't want the majority culture to become the ONLY culture, but it's just not accurate that the US has no culture of its own.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

    My blog:
    TypeC: Adventures of an Introvert
    Wordpress: http://introvertadventures.wordpress.com/

  7. #57
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ISFJ
    Posts
    6,020

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    Yes, we're a young country, and yes, we're a multicultural country that for the most part allows people to retain their cultural heritage within our borders, but the US does also have an overarching "majority" culture. There are good things and bad things about it, like with any culture, and I certainly don't want the majority culture to become the ONLY culture, but it's just not accurate that the US has no culture of its own.
    I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but it's tough to agree with that, coming from the Old World. Anyone can be an american.

  8. #58
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Yeah but a minority's culture shouldn't come before the majority one. If the majority culture is just incompatible with the minority culture it's only democratic that the minority culture adapts. How they adapt is their problem, they don't have to become the frenchest people ever. Adaptation is just adaptation. And there's more than one country in Europe or in the world to choose from.
    They aren't stuck in France.
    Correct in essence but in most cases where one side is pilloried it's more a question of extent. You can't expect a minority to completely come over to the majorities side and the majority refusing to flex is just bully tactics.

    Now I'm not saying the extreme is true in France but the culture is a whole lot more "you will be french damnit" than most places wouldn't you agree?

    For example there's rules about how much non french music can be on the radio and rules on protecting the language in it's most frenchified state. If I remember correctly there's a good example surrounding the term "le weekend" isn't there? (Faint knowledge of some french culture but not expansive.)
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #59
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Living in a country is a social contract. It goes both ways.
    And relative to what some people said, it's just silly to, for example, compare throwing out romas by paying for their plane etc with xenophobia/racism driven behavior.
    The germans/nazis where racists because they hated people who contributed to society.
    The romas were thrown out on the grounds that they refused to contribute to society, this has nothing to do with how people feel or intolerance.
    The Social Contract includes making provision for people who cannot contribute to society in an effective way. And it relies on the rule of law, as I said earlier - which includes having equal rights irrespective of background. Don't forget the Nazis also exterminated disabled/gay/other minorities. It wasn't about racism. It was about maniacal abuse of power. Intolerance breeds intolerance. That seems to be happening in France, sadly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    468 sx/sp
    Socionics
    EII None
    Posts
    4,383

    Default

    It seems gypsy culture regards itself as outsiders and other people as not as good as they are, oddly enough -- that other people deserve to be swindled or stolen from because they're stupid non-gypsys. There are lots of youtube investigative interviews with gypsys about gypsy life, where gypsys talk about the cons and deceptions they use.

    Like the Travelers.

    If it's ingrained in their culture to such an extent ... I don't know why it would be anybody's obligation to harbor them.

Similar Threads

  1. post good music from your country
    By INTP in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 84
    Last Post: 04-21-2013, 03:26 PM
  2. post good music NOT from your country
    By ilikeitlikethat in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-15-2012, 04:26 AM
  3. American national & foreign debt (split from Chinese origins)
    By Rail Tracer in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 04-15-2012, 11:05 PM
  4. battery chargers in foreign countries
    By Walking Tourist in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-27-2010, 03:40 PM
  5. Hellu from Boring Country
    By InvisibleJim in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 11-20-2009, 05:30 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO