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  1. #41
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I don't agree with deportation. I do agree it's a problem with the system.

    I'm just acknowledging the fact that there tends to be a pattern to how they live "within" society, from what I've seen and dealt with. If you're a gypsie and you want to get a college degree and live more in line with the rest of society, other gypsies tend to dislike you too, for example. It's a tough nut to crack.
    True. What are some solutions?

    I used to pass a Roma camp every day on the way to work. It was horrible, unsanitary, children and animals kept in appalling conditions. But that's what social services are for. The fly-tipping etc is dealt with by the local council (who eventually moved them on since they were occupying the land illegally), any crime is dealt with by the police. It seems that people are arguing that those who adopt an alternative lifestyle don't deserve to be treated with the same dignity and given the same rights as everyone else. That's just wrong. It's anti-European too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #42
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    True. What are some solutions?

    I used to pass a Roma camp every day on the way to work. It was horrible, unsanitary, children and animals kept in appalling conditions. But that's what social services are for. The fly-tipping etc is dealt with by the local council (who eventually moved them on since they were occupying the land illegally), any crime is dealt with by the police. It seems that people are arguing that those who adopt an alternative lifestyle don't deserve to be treated with the same dignity and given the same rights as everyone else. That's just wrong. It's anti-European too.
    It has nothing to do with dignity or rights. Most people are integrated into society, why should some people get a free pass? Do romas deserve more rights than anybody else then ?
    People can have alternate lifestyles, but they still have an obligation to try to integrate themselves economically if they want to reap the fruits of this same economy.
    It's too easy to always blame the system.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

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  3. #43
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    True. What are some solutions?

    I used to pass a Roma camp every day on the way to work. It was horrible, unsanitary, children and animals kept in appalling conditions. But that's what social services are for. The fly-tipping etc is dealt with by the local council (who eventually moved them on since they were occupying the land illegally), any crime is dealt with by the police. It seems that people are arguing that those who adopt an alternative lifestyle don't deserve to be treated with the same dignity and given the same rights as everyone else. That's just wrong. It's anti-European too.
    I think the only real scenario where everything would run smoothly would be the annihilation of Roma identity and customs in a natural and progressive way. Either they are assimilated on the Borg that is the rest of society and start living like we do....or conflict will be eternal. They have to conform, as dirty as that sounds.

    Cultural identity is a fucked up issue. I don't even wanna know what it's like in the US and how that country survives. It's much more simpler here where I live where there isn't as much cultural diversity.

  4. #44
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    It has nothing to do with dignity or rights. Most people are integrated into society, why should some people get a free pass? Do romas deserve more rights than anybody else then ?
    Nope. Just the same rights.

    Cultural assimilation has a dirty history. People should be able to preserve their culture, within the boundaries of the law. That is the kind of tolerant society that we all want to live in. France used to be a pretty tolerant society, what went wrong?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #45
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Nope. Just the same rights.

    Cultural assimilation has a dirty history. People should be able to preserve their culture, within the boundaries of the law. That is the kind of tolerant society that we all want to live in. France used to be a pretty tolerant society, what went wrong?
    Yeah but a minority's culture shouldn't come before the majority one. If the majority culture is just incompatible with the minority culture it's only democratic that the minority culture adapts. How they adapt is their problem, they don't have to become the frenchest people ever. Adaptation is just adaptation. And there's more than one country in Europe or in the world to choose from.
    They aren't stuck in France.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
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    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
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    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
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  6. #46
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Nope. Just the same rights.

    Cultural assimilation has a dirty history. People should be able to preserve their culture, within the boundaries of the law. That is the kind of tolerant society that we all want to live in. France used to be a pretty tolerant society, what went wrong?
    My fairly uneducated guess - wanting to assimilate too much.

    It's beautiful to think of everyone getting along. But there are limits to human nature. I think those egalitarian values should NOT be thrown to the trash...but (and I'm far from being a nationalist) with all the assimilation, where does national identity go?

    Countries need to be dissolved, or based around other criteria, if this ideal is ever to survive.

  7. #47
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    It's just a basic property of human interaction. You have to share similarities. To talk the same language to begin with, to follow some ground rules such as wearing clothes (most of the time) etc.
    Societies are more complex constructs and are bound to be dependant on a complex set of rules. Luckily; laws (in general) exist to allow reducing this complexity into a merely 'complicated' system.
    I agree that groups shouldn't be judged. Individuals should be judged.

    But it's also idealistic to want 'the system' to judge every single thing by and for itself (from import/export laws and fees to parking tickets) without taking into account that it has limited ressources to do so in the first place and that these ressources come from its tax paying citizens. Not to mention international economical competition.

    I'd be vehemently against the throwing out of the romas if it concerned all romas as it'd be very unlikely that all the concerned romas were implicated in an unilateral (parasitic) relation with their host society (here France).
    Now, as I said earlier, I just don't know about the particular romas who were thrown out or the exact legal process it went through.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  8. #48
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    No. That's a terrible example.
    When doing a business deal in say, Iran, I'm not going to drink wine because it hurts their sensibilities.
    Well, a western culture with judeo christian bases and believing in equality of genders etc is bound to expect the same from muslims, be they of french nationality of not.
    The fact that's it's 'religious' doesn't give it a free pass.
    Western cultures are never going to get any respect if they keep accepting everything yet respecting other culture's wishes. That's not the behavior of a strong culture, it's the behavior seen in push overs. And being rich push overs doesn't make it less so
    I beg to differ. It's great that when you go to Iran and respect their traditions. But there's a difference between a VISITOR to a country respecting the culture of that country and a CITIZEN of a certain country being told they can't practice their religion in the way that they choose within the borders of that country.

    Back to the subject of the Roma, I definitely get that there are some aspects of Roma culture that are not in alignment with international human rights goals. They may engage in thievery, but I'm not sure how much of that perception is based on fact rather than stereotype. They certainly engage in begging, but one can hardly blame them when you see some of the conditions they live in (like Lark said, shanty towns). More troubling are the internal feuds and the attitude toward women and homosexuals. Certainly these issues should be addressed within the community, but marginalizing the community is not the way to go about it. To quote the old adage, You catch more flies with honey. Violating their human rights because their culture holds some beliefs that violate the universal concept of human rights is not acceptable. To quote another old adage, Two wrongs don't make a right!
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  9. #49
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    It's just a basic property of human interaction. You have to share similarities. To talk the same language to begin with
    This is pretty ironic, coming from a Frenchman. Why are you guys so protective of the French language then? Why don't we all just speak English if we value communication and similarity so highly? Or is it only French culture that has currency?

    Sounds boring to me. Viva la difference!

    Not just boring - dangerous. Why is Scots Gaelic practically extinct? Because our English occupiers thought much as you do and outlawed it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #50
    Senior Member ubee0173's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    No, that makes you biased.
    jesus- dont be so touchy; i love how you quoted 'damn europens' as though i offended you (but people go on and on about the roma like they arent even discussing people, but a raccoon infestation) but i shouldnt even be slightly offended, should i. how am i biased if i am a little bit of all of it? i am just as much english as i am native american, as much french as i am roma. im like a walking fucking U.N.! i fail to see how i am biased- i just dont believe its right, and i can see the argument from several perspectives. if someone is a criminal, prosecute them. if they are just surviving and not hurting anyone, leave 'em alone. crime is not a cultural problem, its a people problem. you have assholes in every race, and this wont solve the problem. and who is going to cause problems with this? the roma mom trying to take care of her kids, or that guy that threw whoevers (sorry, i didnt remember the name) sister's bike onto that building? lets see...
    I will buy you a drink and I'll tell you what I think, and tomorrow, in the morning, I won't be sorry that I didn't sleep.


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