User Tag List

First 12345 Last

Results 21 to 30 of 85

  1. #21
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Yeah, but I gather you don't have experience with Romas? France has a large, extremely large (possibly the largest among European countries, excepting UK) immigrant population - both first, second and third generation - yet they've never had to expel any of those.
    What's funny is France still has a smaller foreign born population than the US, in both absolute numbers and by percentage. Only about 8% (~5 million) of the French population is foreign-born. The foreign-born population in the US is 40 million (~13%). Imagine the turmoil in France if they had a foreign-born population closer to that of the US.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #22
    Yup
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    Istj
    Posts
    1,515

    Default

    it sounds like there is a freedom in being nomadic, cause you are never in one place long enough for anything to really matter or stick. does being nomadic easily promote behaviors that are considered criminal?

    do gypsies travel in pacts?

  3. #23
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yakimadude View Post
    do gypsies travel in pacts?
    Heh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    Well and they are EU citizens... so they have the right to come back!!

    The interplay between settled people and unsettled people has always been really interesting to me... why are settled people, by and large, so threatened by the unsettled?

    I don't know a lot about modern-day Roma culture, but from what I understand, the vast majority of Roma are settled, nowadays, at least in the US. But there are always modern-day traveling people-- carnies, those who follow the Ren Faire circuit, etc. I don't really have any point, except that I thought it was interesting.

    Well and yeah, I think France's xenophobic underwear is showing, but it does that from time to time....
    Yeah but I'm not sure it is xenophobic.

    True there are large sections of the population who have transfered their protest votes from the traditional communists to the ethno-nationalists like Le Pen's party but when they have ever been in power they have made sure of only one thing that no one is going to vote for them again.

    I've seen the Roma sites which they are breaking up with this measure and they are really ugly places, think of some of the third world shanty towns or latin American barrows and you are getting a close approximation.

    So there are a lot of socialists and others of left or liberal stripe who are considering this a targetted intervention measure to do something about the squalid conditions which have grown up around a marginalised, ethnic minority which are largely sustained by that group themselves.

    I mean in all seriousness you cant be a supporter of slum clearence and other similar measures without expecting to encounter stiff resistance not just from the slum lords who may profit from it all but the slum dwellers who think it a major disturbance for a promised and uncertain improvement. That's even if they'd consider it an improvement at all and not anathema to their choosen way of life.

    Like I've said before it is a stunt, they could return, the French hope they wont, they hope if they do that they've had an opportunity now to dissolve the camps and therefore can prevent them re-establishing themselves in that way.

  5. #25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yakimadude View Post
    it sounds like there is a freedom in being nomadic, cause you are never in one place long enough for anything to really matter or stick. does being nomadic easily promote behaviors that are considered criminal?

    do gypsies travel in pacts?
    Well, if you're never in one place you can be in a state of perpetual flight from consequences, on a permanent dodge, so perhaps it can lead particular people to act criminally but there are other issues to do with neglect of living space and neighbourliness or anti-social behaviour.

    Its very similar to the issues encountered by communities and local authorities dealing with transiant families, for instance in my time in social services I encountered the phenomenon of people perpetually on the move, on the run, in a state of perpetual commotion and franticism, living out of boxes and no sooner in one place than they where contemplating the next move. This was reinforced by the housing authorities whose officers suggested to me that there was a virtual "route" travelled by this population, between large urban centres, rural settings and around again, often once a property was vacated by one family of this sort it was moved into by another family of this sort.

    It was something that I saw being engendered or reproduced across generations, often from a young age when children and adolescents sought to escape the capracious "authority" of their parents and then would later project onto formal authorities, neighbours or anyone complaining. Its also something associated with trauma too, trauma which can take three generations to no longer be felt even with successful interventions or good fortune.

    I'm not suggesting that the travelling communities are one and the same as these populations, they arent, although an honest traveller will admit that that element exists in their community as much as in any settled community. In Ireland at least, while more often than not the travelling community will close ranks against outsiders, they will also engage in shocking internal struggles, feuding and violence, weddings and funnerals are often occasions for major battles involving guns or machetes even.

    This issue is one of those chestnutts, most of the people who for good reasons feel inclined to stand up for particular individuals and groups ascribed a certain low status I find will become the most alienated by the same individuals and groups if they have much direct dealings with them.

  6. #26
    Senior Member ubee0173's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    MBTI
    enfp
    Enneagram
    7
    Socionics
    iei
    Posts
    113

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    I'm thinking with all of these illegals, both in France and in the US, we need to go back to more medieval types of punishments and put those results on display in some way. If rational, sensible penalties aren't working, then perhaps it's time to up the ante here and drive fear into the hearts of would be illegal immigrants.
    well, with the Roma they sort of already did that. You know, that whole holocaust thing (oh wait, that was just jews right- or maybe it just never happened!)? and perhaps if they hadnt been chased out of, um, everywhere, they wouldnt have been forced to develop a few shady tactics to survive. all personal feelings aside, it seems a bit like putting lipstick on a pig. it will still be a pig- problem NOT solved. and it really is a shame that a bit more fear wasnt put into the illegal us immigrants- about 300 years ago. damn europeans fucking it up for everyone. and having native american/ sinti roma/ english ancestry, i have a pretty decent perspective i would say.
    I will buy you a drink and I'll tell you what I think, and tomorrow, in the morning, I won't be sorry that I didn't sleep.


    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  7. #27
    Senior Member StrawMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    It doesn't matter whether you say culture or race, this is still a highly ethnocentric and intolerant stance.

    Even if it were justified, which I don't believe that it is, I'm not just talking about this incident when I say that France has some xenophobic tendencies. It's certainly not everyone in France - I think the French are great people - but the government traditionally and historically has been very nationalistic and reluctant to tolerate certain "foreign" customs within its borders. The issue of banning burqas/facial veils is another example.
    The Roma people, in Scandinavia at least, don't often finish their basic education (and are pretty much the only people doing so). They have a hard time keeping a job, and hard time getting it also, one of the reasons for it being that they tend not to have studied an occupation. As said, stealing is also widespread amongst them, even though scandinavian social system doesn't force people to it. I'm not saying that all Roma people are like this, but when something is more of a tendency than an exception, I think it's allowed to generalize.

    Now, how much should you tolerate anti-social behaviour? At least criticizing it should not be a big issue. The habits of Roma people are not just "foreign customs" like praying 5 times a day etc, the guys cost money to other people. I don't mean though that you should start cursing at or judging members of a specific group before knowing anything of the said individuals.

  8. #28
    XES 5231311252's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Socionics
    LII
    Posts
    450

    Default

    They are being paid to leave and if they are illegal and causing problems, what's wrong with expelling them? If I were one of them, I wouldn't want to live in a country that is paying me to leave. That really means something coming from the French.

  9. #29
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I've seen the Roma sites which they are breaking up with this measure and they are really ugly places, think of some of the third world shanty towns or latin American barrows and you are getting a close approximation.
    How does one make the leap from "no one should have to live in slum conditions" to "let's kick these people out of the COUNTRY"?
    Seriously.
    It's an absurd move which has only garnered local and international condemnation, cost them a lot of money and has no way of being effective. Chances are, they'll take the money, come back with a few cousins in tow, build an even bigger slum, and wait for the next handout. That's what I would do. Stupid French!

    Those people who are suggesting that entire communities should be "ethnically cleansed" because there are higher incidents of some types of crime in those communities disturb me more than anything else. I mean, fuck people, take your heads out of your asses for a second and think about the consequences of such a policy. Why have the rule of law at all? Why not just lynch suspicious-looking people on sight based on their associates?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #30
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    738
    Socionics
    ILE None
    Posts
    7,262

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    I think the French are great people - but the government traditionally and historically has been very nationalistic and reluctant to tolerate certain "foreign" customs within its borders. The issue of banning burqas/facial veils is another example.
    No. That's a terrible example.
    When doing a business deal in say, Iran, I'm not going to drink wine because it hurts their sensibilities.
    Well, a western culture with judeo christian bases and believing in equality of genders etc is bound to expect the same from muslims, be they of french nationality of not.
    The fact that's it's 'religious' doesn't give it a free pass.
    Western cultures are never going to get any respect if they keep accepting everything yet respecting other culture's wishes. That's not the behavior of a strong culture, it's the behavior seen in push overs. And being rich push overs doesn't make it less so
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

Similar Threads

  1. post good music from your country
    By INTP in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 84
    Last Post: 04-21-2013, 03:26 PM
  2. post good music NOT from your country
    By ilikeitlikethat in forum Arts & Entertainment
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-15-2012, 04:26 AM
  3. American national & foreign debt (split from Chinese origins)
    By Rail Tracer in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 04-15-2012, 11:05 PM
  4. battery chargers in foreign countries
    By Walking Tourist in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-27-2010, 03:40 PM
  5. Hellu from Boring Country
    By InvisibleJim in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 11-20-2009, 05:30 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO