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  1. #71
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Honestly, I agree. I can see some of this attitude even in the original opposition to British policies. The colonies did get a little too accustomed to not paying British taxes and then balked when the laws were enforced. On some level, after reading the history, I feel like the United States brought a lot of the negative regulatory policies on itself by resisting lighter ones so vehemently. So they weren't completely justified in declaring independence. Although I like the principles of the nation we eventually became.
    It's just a shame that those very principles are being capitalised on by the few screwing it up for the many.

    I always thought there was good reason why all the best comics came from America. There's a visceral passion behind getting those responsible who can't be touched by normal strictures that's unlike anywhere else.
    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Not to mention that to this day, people who aren't energetic enough to participate strongly in community activities and get an education at the same time are still looked down on in many ways when seeking employment.
    You mean you weren't a cheerleader whilst studying for your doctorate and helping the poor? I'm sorry you're just not what we're looking for.
    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I do think that I could have delivered a speech better than he usually does after taking Communications Applications in High School.
    May I be the first to inquire as to what in the nine hells 'communications applications' is?

    Is it perchance how to apply your phone to someone who is attacking you?

    Oh and as for speeches, we have a cat who has more charisma and intellect than Bush.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #72
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    It's just a shame that those very principles are being capitalised on by the few screwing it up for the many.
    So, do you think they were good principles on their own, but the application of them doesn't fit anymore? That's kind of my guess.
    I always thought there was good reason why all the best comics came from America. There's a visceral passion behind getting those responsible who can't be touched by normal strictures that's unlike anywhere else.
    Yes. I think a lot of comic villains were first modeled after tax collectors and bankers shortly after the Great Depression...

    May I be the first to inquire as to what in the nine hells 'communications applications' is?

    Is it perchance how to apply your phone to someone who is attacking you?
    No, it's a class where they try to teach you how to give speeches, present yourself in an interview, write a resume` (that "e" should have an accent mark over it, but that's not well supported by the forum), and read about proper communication techniques, styles of speaking for different kinds of appeals, and how long you should make eye contact, when and how you should break it, etc.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    It's always been ESTJ. America has always been about groups, cliques, teams, etc etc. It's always been organised into groups and those groups have always been insular.

    All I can see throughout all I've seen of the USA is "We are the bestest and yuz poo" from each and every organisation. Of course the refined ones try to conceal it in fancier words and the more proactive ones write it on bullets. It's all roses to me.
    That's not what I've seen and heard of. A lot of the people coming were religious groups and such, but a lot of activity was also simply "take what's there", and justify it later, which seems to fit more into an ESTP mentality.

    Oh one thing I did forget to address which you said, there's a large yawning gap in between not being very good at speeches and being that bad. Also the whole body language, eyes and mannerisms just tell you that the guy couldn't have won the presidency in a theocracy even if the opposition were five year olds!
    You must have seen different speeches than, most of the ones I've seen have been basic, standard speeches. Even if you see the "bushisms" ones, you are not in a position to know how much of those speeches are playing up to a friendly image.

    Despite all this, these are simply speeches, they are not laws being passed, or wars orders being given. (Even if a speech describes such an order, how well it is spoken is separate from the order itself.) If the speeches serve to influence opinions and give out important information, than they have done the most they can do. The speaking style (intellectual, f\energetic, etc.) is a surface feature that may or may not effect the end result of the speech.

  4. #74
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    So, do you think they were good principles on their own, but the application of them doesn't fit anymore? That's kind of my guess.
    Outmanoeuvred is my guess. It was designed to protect the individuals right and now it is used as an excuse for antisocial behaviour both individually and as groups.
    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Yes. I think a lot of comic villains were first modeled after tax collectors and bankers shortly after the Great Depression...
    Whatever happened to the heroes though?
    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    No, it's a class where they try to teach you how to give speeches, present yourself in an interview, write a resume` (that "e" should have an accent mark over it, but that's not well supported by the forum), and read about proper communication techniques, styles of speaking for different kinds of appeals, and how long you should make eye contact, when and how you should break it, etc.
    Oh my fabulous god!! You went to finishing school!!!

    Did you have to learn about which fork too?
    Quote Originally Posted by Zergling View Post
    That's not what I've seen and heard of. A lot of the people coming were religious groups and such, but a lot of activity was also simply "take what's there", and justify it later, which seems to fit more into an ESTP mentality.
    Nuh uh. ESTPs I'd expect to not even give a seconds thought to justification afterwards but they'd need more justification before hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zergling View Post
    You must have seen different speeches than, most of the ones I've seen have been basic, standard speeches. Even if you see the "bushisms" ones, you are not in a position to know how much of those speeches are playing up to a friendly image.
    I see. You're all thick so I'll pretend to be the same so you'll like me and not pick on me as a know-it-all.

    Dude, the guy's just insulted you and yo mama!! (/jk)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zergling View Post
    Despite all this, these are simply speeches, they are not laws being passed, or wars orders being given. (Even if a speech describes such an order, how well it is spoken is separate from the order itself.) If the speeches serve to influence opinions and give out important information, than they have done the most they can do. The speaking style (intellectual, f\energetic, etc.) is a surface feature that may or may not effect the end result of the speech.
    How you present yourself is how you are received (in crude terms). I fail to see how anyone could take someone thick and construct a theory that they are actually amazingly intelligent and are just playing dumb without very very compelling evidence to support it.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #75
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    Kelric, this was what I was referring to, that interest groups sway votes too much, and as you've pointed out, not always for the common good of America herself, let alone global policy?

    My question (and frustration, I'll admit) is, wouldn't the general voting public have learnt from the Bush lessons, but how are they making their choices this time around? Still the same, based on what buttons are pushed? How could there be an effective change if the choices are being made on the same grounds?

    And it frustrates me even more when folks do not vote as well. By not making a choice, aren't you making a choice too?

    Re economics & tax reductions for the rich, I came across this interesting barstool philosophy:

    "Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

    The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
    The fifth would pay $1.
    The sixth would pay $3.
    The seventh would pay $7.
    The eighth would pay $12.
    The ninth would pay $18.
    The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
    So, that's what they decided to do.

    The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20." Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.


    The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?' They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so:


    The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
    The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
    The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
    The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
    The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
    The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

    Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

    "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!"

    "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!"

    "That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

    "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

    The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

    The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

    And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier."
    This analogy leaves out one important detail. The tenth man owns the bar and will end up with all of the money anway.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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  6. #76
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    Nuh uh. ESTPs I'd expect to not even give a seconds thought to justification afterwards but they'd need more justification before hand.
    Here we're arguing about expected behaviours of types, which are very hard to pin down. However, the ESTP thought process would seem to be "We need to (conquer this land/swindle this person/etc.), how do we convince other people to do it", which seems to fit with how a lot of stuff the U.S. did in the past was decided on.

    How you present yourself is how you are received (in crude terms). I fail to see how anyone could take someone thick and construct a theory that they are actually amazingly intelligent and are just playing dumb without very very compelling evidence to support it.
    You are exaggerating heavily on this argument.

    People have different types of speaking style,s some people have a "forceful" style, some have an 'articulate" style, "down to earth", etc. If Bush's speaking style trends more in the "less articulate, down to earth' direction, the style does produce some self-deprecation, just-like-regular-folks, style that will appeal to a lot of people. Playing up these elements will help in appealing to people, but it will cause the person making the speeches to appear less smart than they actually are.

    I see. You're all thick so I'll pretend to be the same so you'll like me and not pick on me as a know-it-all.
    A less sarcastic version of this has, and always has had, some appeal to la lot of people.

  7. #77
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zergling View Post
    Here we're arguing about expected behaviours of types, which are very hard to pin down. However, the ESTP thought process would seem to be "We need to (conquer this land/swindle this person/etc.), how do we convince other people to do it", which seems to fit with how a lot of stuff the U.S. did in the past was decided on.
    Odd. I still read that as ESTJ. Plus I'm fairly sure that if an ESTP started to do something so mass scale that no one would be capable of following it.

    xxxx "So we're driving back the Cheyenne"
    ESTP "Yes. All except those ones."
    xxxx "Why those ones?"
    ESTP "I like them."
    xxxx "But they are now helping all the others to rally."
    ESTP "I fancy sailing. Can we go further north?"
    xxxx "What about the Cheyenne?"
    ESTP "Bored."
    Quote Originally Posted by Zergling View Post
    You are exaggerating heavily on this argument.
    Sorry but I just don't see how in anyone's estimations the guy is anything but an illiterate hick! The policy discussions just sound like he's got a few people who know what they're doing and they are using him as a ventriloquists dummy. Hell even on that score the ventriloquist needs shooting as he's useless!

    You'd be right in thinking I'm being flippant but I find it hard to find any hard discussion regarding Bush.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zergling View Post
    People have different types of speaking style,s some people have a "forceful" style, some have an 'articulate" style, "down to earth", etc. If Bush's speaking style trends more in the "less articulate, down to earth' direction, the style does produce some self-deprecation, just-like-regular-folks, style that will appeal to a lot of people. Playing up these elements will help in appealing to people, but it will cause the person making the speeches to appear less smart than they actually are.
    So who are people picking for a leader then? A capable person similar to a good manager (though on a larger scale) or a babysitter who you get on with and approve of their theories on childcare regardless of whether they are liable to end up in NASA or McDonalds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zergling View Post
    A less sarcastic version of this has, and always has had, some appeal to la lot of people.
    Sarcasm? Moi?

    Yeah I know what you mean. Some read patronising behaviour as taking their feelings into account. Just goes to prove that there is one born every minute.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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