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  1. #51
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I can imagine. It gets worse in the east, I think. I see far more ESTJ in the east coast than other parts of the country. Even so, I feel like I've become a bit more intelligent reading things written by people outside the United States on here despite being in college, if that tells you anything.
    For a country which holds a good number from every other nation inside it's borders, America does seem a very insular country.
    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I just wish I knew how to get them to elect someone who would actually do a good job. I hope they nominate better candidates this time.
    You're being silly now. They have to pick a politician
    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I've felt that way for awhile... it seems like they focus too much on maintaining established institutions in the face of new understandings. Like trying to act as though people still fit into several traditional roles when they've clearly outgrown them in many ways. It never occurred to anyone to look at what we have now, and mold the understandings. They just try to shove the new into the old categories whether it fits or not. It seems like they abandon the best of our traditions and maintain the least meaningful, at times.
    Yes. It seems to me that whenever a change is coming someone in America forms an organisation to oppose the change and resist it. In fact it seems like nothing gets done unless people are placed into groups with other groups to resist and mottos and rules and all sorts of unnecessary organisation. They do an Arnold Rimmer, spending six weeks of their seven weeks revision coming up with a beautiful revision table. Then realise they only have one week left and so redesign the time table for the remaining week really quickly in like only six days. Then realise they have only a day and try and cram as much as possible.

    Remarkable considering the education system is almost unsurvivable based on that approach (from what I've heard).
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #52
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    America is just so extremely political. For example, Bush won the second time by capturing the Evangelical vote with promises to stop gay marriage. People in outside countries are different, because while they do have their positions, they are quite a bit more moderate and realistic about them. Whereas American's really do be in the absolutism of their ideology. Liberal Americans often do really believe in perfect social equality, Libertarian Americans often do really believe in absolute free individual choice, and Conservative Americans often really do believe in the infallibility of their religious convictions. In a way, America is filled with a good share of uncompromising extremists. But is getting better. Many more are getting out of the partisan system and becoming independent, and it probably won't be long before Democrats and Republicans go the way of the Federalists and Wigs.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    America is just so extremely political. For example, Bush won the second time by capturing the Evangelical vote with promises to stop gay marriage. .

    I think I remember someone telling me the reason he won was Diebold. Maybe I remember that wrong...

  4. #54
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    America is just so extremely political. For example, Bush won the second time by capturing the Evangelical vote with promises to stop gay marriage. People in outside countries are different, because while they do have their positions, they are quite a bit more moderate and realistic about them. Whereas American's really do be in the absolutism of their ideology. Liberal Americans often do really believe in perfect social equality, Libertarian Americans often do really believe in absolute free individual choice, and Conservative Americans often really do believe in the infallibility of their religious convictions. In a way, America is filled with a good share of uncompromising extremists. But is getting better. Many more are getting out of the partisan system and becoming independent, and it probably won't be long before Democrats and Republicans go the way of the Federalists and Wigs.
    Why is it always a two horse race? I hate that.It pretty much doesn't matter what you vote here unless it's Conservative or Labour and personally I think they're both wrong.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    The demoralization of a people seems so horrific. Slowly breaking their spirits, taking away everything they have to live for, dehumanizing them, taking away their ability to defend themselves, and nobody speaking up on their behalf. No wonder they couldn't find the strength to fight. When you are so separated from everything, then you really do become nothing.
    It is the way wars are fought. When the Bolsheviks marched through Poland, they killed the story-tellers first. In the Cultural Revolution, they burnt books and sent scholars to hard labour. The Khmer Rouge selected as prison guards, boys of 8-12. Easily trainable, inured to violence, capable of great cruelty. Destroy hope, thinkers, the next generation, and the battle is won, simply. Anything after is merely a matter of sweeping up, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    America is just so extremely political. For example, Bush won the second time by capturing the Evangelical vote with promises to stop gay marriage. People in outside countries are different, because while they do have their positions, they are quite a bit more moderate and realistic about them. Whereas American's really do be in the absolutism of their ideology. Liberal Americans often do really believe in perfect social equality, Libertarian Americans often do really believe in absolute free individual choice, and Conservative Americans often really do believe in the infallibility of their religious convictions. In a way, America is filled with a good share of uncompromising extremists. But is getting better. Many more are getting out of the partisan system and becoming independent, and it probably won't be long before Democrats and Republicans go the way of the Federalists and Wigs.
    As an outsider, I have to say, the issue with America isn't politicism - any country, any system, has its own games, and I dare say America's are not more complex than many other countries'. The difference is that your policies have a global effect. Hence the choice of American leaders bears greater consequences than the average American fully understands, I feel.

    So they pick someone who furthers their own interest, in their own country, but it neglects the fact that a choice that is good for one vocal group in a country, may not be good for the whole, nor the best for the world.

    There is too much this cult of being "safe and comfortable in my own ignorance, and the world revolves around me". Indeed, almost a trumpeting of a self-ignorant, surface culture as something to be proud of.

    Nay. I'd say the issue isn't politicism. It is insularity. It is misplaced self-confidence. America has not gotten a handle thoroughly on how fast the world is changing, and as a world leader, they're still too busy in their homeyard. When a war comes, do you think it will matter if you're gay, Protestant, what-have-you interest groups? But the leaders are being picked along those lines, aren't they?

    Insularity with power, the vote in the hands of un-thinkers? It is a dangerous mix.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Is it not worrying by itself that as a country you voted in a guy who cannot even manage speech without screwing it up?
    This really doesn't seem to be that big of a deal, it simply is one of those surface features (There have been presidents who were not exceptional speech givers, people who would have grammar screwups, etc., who were fine as presidents)

    It is the way wars are fought. When the Bolsheviks marched through Poland, they killed the story-tellers first. In the Cultural Revolution, they burnt books and sent scholars to hard labour. The Khmer Rouge selected as prison guards, boys of 8-12. Easily trainable, inured to violence, capable of great cruelty.
    This does seem to sum up some elements of how various problems have crept into the U.S. Reading about the history of how schools worked in the country and a few other places, the U.S. seems to have had quite a good basic school system, or at least a basic system that kept pretty even compared ot toher countries. From descriptions from my grandparents (Who grew up in farming areas/small towns near northwest Ohio), and a few other stories, it sounds like there wasn't a lot of issues people had with people who were smarter, though this may come from me filtering, or other stories being filtered the right way.

    Nowadays there seem to be a lot of places where being smarter than average is seem more as something to hate, or otherwise see as a problem that needs to be removed, whether or not it is deliberate, or some other culture change, and, of course, other places have had their educations systems greatly improved while the U.S.'s system has slowed down, or at least not improved much.

    Yes. It seems to me that whenever a change is coming someone in America forms an organisation to oppose the change and resist it. In fact it seems like nothing gets done unless people are placed into groups with other groups to resist and mottos and rules and all sorts of unnecessary organisation. They do an Arnold Rimmer, spending six weeks of their seven weeks revision coming up with a beautiful revision table. Then realise they only have one week left and so redesign the time table for the remaining week really quickly in like only six days. Then realise they have only a day and try and cram as much as possible.
    This seems to happen everywhere, actually, the U.S. has just ended up mcuh more powerful, along with some systems left over that are coming back to bite badly.

    Try comparing what's wrong with America from an attitude point of view and compare it to an underdeveloped ESTJ. The similarities are remarkable. The most obvious being the knee jerk reactions and the constant state of stress. I, for one, have been pleasantly corrected by the American's I've met on these forums. From the outside looking in I could have sworn that rednecks ruled the whole country... oh wait A redneck rules the country.
    This seems to mainly be judging based on the speaking manner and such, which is a surface feature of a person as opposed to a feature of how they run the country.

    The "underdeveloped ESTJ" bit does make sense, though. The U.S. in the past has seemed to have had a more ESTP type of culture, but a lot of underdeveloped ESTJ issues some people have talked about here seem to resemble how an ESTP might be expected to act. It does seem that, with becoming a superpower in the 20th century, economic growth, and in general becoming an older, more built up country, that people would adjust to a more security and tradition oriented viewpoint, but would not have developed into that role all that well.

  7. #57
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    Just to add some extra information on comparing the modern U.S. to other times and places:


    The U.S. has always had elections based on cultural issues, people accidentally saying the wrong thing, etc. I have not looked too deeply into elections in other countries, so cannot make a good comparison with, say British or French or Japanese elections over time.


    Religion has always been a big element of how various society reforms and changes occur in the U.S., although today a lot more religions seem to be working together for a certain political view, while in the past different sets of religions seem to have supported a much wider range of viewpoints in other areas. (Both pro and anti-slavery people, for example, had strong support from different religions groups.) In, say Latin American or European countries, religion seems to have more commonly played the "Keepers of tradition" role, while supporting one viewpoint, though someone with more knowledge about those histories would probably know better.

  8. #58
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    So they pick someone who furthers their own interest, in their own country, but it neglects the fact that a choice that is good for one vocal group in a country, may not be good for the whole, nor the best for the world.

    There is too much this cult of being "safe and comfortable in my own ignorance, and the world revolves around me". Indeed, almost a trumpeting of a self-ignorant, surface culture as something to be proud of.

    Nay. I'd say the issue isn't politicism. It is insularity. It is misplaced self-confidence. America has not gotten a handle thoroughly on how fast the world is changing, and as a world leader, they're still too busy in their homeyard. When a war comes, do you think it will matter if you're gay, Protestant, what-have-you interest groups? But the leaders are being picked along those lines, aren't they?

    Insularity with power, the vote in the hands of un-thinkers? It is a dangerous mix.
    I guess the thing is, we have too many differences of opinion to be able to present a united front to the rest of the world. We have different values and different cultures all cobbled together and trying to coexist in tension. There's religious segments, corporate interests, liberals, and ethnic groups all trying to get people to accept their values as the correct ones. There seem to be too many things that have to be held in compromise to avoid violating the rights of any one group.

    Basically, I don't the United States was ready or unified enough to become a world power when it did. It just sort of happened as a reaction, and was never really sought. We've been isolationists for a long time, and many still seek to keep it that way because it used to bring safety (due to our oceans).

    If people could just educate themselves, be less rigid in their values, and find out what it takes to fix the problems, we would probably be a long way towards fixing everything. But even if somehow we managed to start instilling this now, by the time another generation came that could fix them, it would already be too late.

    Some of us aren't just sitting here in ignorance thinking the world revolves around us. Some of us are sitting here watching the clock, waiting for everything to crumble because we don't think there's anything that can be done. So it's a combination of ignorant people who don't know, and resigned people who do.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    So it's a combination of ignorant people who don't know, and resigned people who do.
    And that's the cause for worry, isn't it... when the intelligent remain silent. . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Zergling View Post
    The "underdeveloped ESTJ" bit does make sense, though. The U.S. in the past has seemed to have had a more ESTP type of culture, but a lot of underdeveloped ESTJ issues some people have talked about here seem to resemble how an ESTP might be expected to act. It does seem that, with becoming a superpower in the 20th century, economic growth, and in general becoming an older, more built up country, that people would adjust to a more security and tradition oriented viewpoint, but would not have developed into that role all that well.
    It is interesting you compare the US as having the psyche of an ESTP rather than an immature ESTJ - That an ESTJ would've matured to fill up the role in a sense. I see your logic in that an ESTP may not fill an expected role comfortably, lacking an inner centre of stability as such. From an outsider's perspective, there's sometimes a sense that America does not always know what she is doing/does not consider the consequences all too well?

  10. #60
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    So they pick someone who furthers their own interest, in their own country, but it neglects the fact that a choice that is good for one vocal group in a country, may not be good for the whole, nor the best for the world.

    There is too much this cult of being "safe and comfortable in my own ignorance, and the world revolves around me". Indeed, almost a trumpeting of a self-ignorant, surface culture as something to be proud of.

    Nay. I'd say the issue isn't politicism. It is insularity. It is misplaced self-confidence. America has not gotten a handle thoroughly on how fast the world is changing, and as a world leader, they're still too busy in their homeyard. When a war comes, do you think it will matter if you're gay, Protestant, what-have-you interest groups? But the leaders are being picked along those lines, aren't they?

    Insularity with power, the vote in the hands of un-thinkers? It is a dangerous mix.
    I agree with most of your post, Aelan, except for the line about
    So they pick someone who furthers their own interest, in their own country
    Now I'm a long-time Bush administration hater, so I'm assuming that you're referring primarily to the current administration that centers around his viewpoints. Fact is, these viewpoints aren't in the best interests of many Americans who voted for him. Lowering taxes for the very wealthy, reducing support for public services, deceiving as an excuse to invade Iraq, reductions in civil liberties in the name of "combating terrorism", reductions in environmental standards, rendition and torture of prisoners, breaking the Geneva conventions, "signing statements" - I could go on, but you get the idea.

    The problem is that with the overwhelming power of media and its ability to influence voter opinion, the more important an election, the more important fund raising and campaigning are, and the less important actual leadership skills and actually doing what's best for the constituents are. So we wind up, more and more, with people in leadership roles who are good at getting elected, bought and paid for by those with something to gain (campaign contributors). Especially when the media is "hands off" with respect to reporting on information that people really need in order to make an informed decision. The strategy seems to be to gather a set of "pushbutton issue" positions to get people rabidly focused more on voting for you or against your opponent based on specific, often irrational fears rather than on an overall evaluation of a candidate's position and past actions.

    Wish I had an answer.

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