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  1. #21

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    Guys you know what the difference is?

    Go film the local pushers, pimps, fences, rapists, people traffickers on your cells.

    Then come back and tell me what a complete shower of bastards the authorities are.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Fan.of.Devin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Guys you know what the difference is?

    Go film the local pushers, pimps, fences, rapists, people traffickers on your cells.

    Then come back and tell me what a complete shower of bastards the authorities are.
    Law enforcement officials are held to (marginally) higher standards than the above mentioned individuals, mainly because if they get caught, it can be a mess to clean up.
    Police brutality is a real and serious problem, but, it only becomes so for the state once things elevate beyond the word of the victim vs. the word of the authority in question... Believe it or not, police get more benefit of the doubt from their colleges and superiors than do the victims. Imagine that!

    Cameras facilitate them being caught, hence why laws like this are exploited.
    Easier and cheaper to continue ignoring a problem than to fix it.

    Laws against filming/recording somebody in a generally public space will quickly become about as practical to enforce in modern society as anti-voyeurism laws in a world where everyone has x-ray vision.

    The potential of being under the watch of cameras alone is likely to lower incidences of police brutality, and in practice it increases transparency greatly.
    Could video be used for manipulative purposes? Sure, any form of evidence can.
    What makes video unique?
    Kind of silly to argue the civilian populace might abuse perjury/falsification of evidence when the state is already miles ahead of them. :P

    I actually don't really have a big problem with the officer's behavior in this instance, though I think pulling a gun immediately on a speeder is more than a bit silly and unprofessional; I don't think it was criminal.
    I do have a problem with this "can do no wrong" attitude among law enforcement and criminal justice.
    I do not hate or dislike individuals involved in these fields; I personally know many officers who are good, honest, hardworking people, who put their safety and even lives on the line in order help people as best they can. I'd even wager to say the majority of them are as such.
    I do, however, hate when the system caters to individuals who abuse their power, lie, manipulate, intimidate, and coerce people for their own personal gains, or often enough, just for fun.
    Police and prosecutorial misconduct are practically the norm.
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  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan.of.Townsend View Post
    Law enforcement officials are held to (marginally) higher standards than the above mentioned individuals, mainly because if they get caught, it can be a mess to clean up.
    Police brutality is a real and serious problem, but, it only becomes so for the state once things elevate beyond the word of the victim vs. the word of the authority in question... Believe it or not, police get more benefit of the doubt from their colleges and superiors than do the victims. Imagine that!

    Cameras facilitate them being caught, hence why laws like this are exploited.
    Easier and cheaper to continue ignoring a problem than to fix it.

    Laws against filming/recording somebody in a generally public space will quickly become about as practical to enforce in modern society as anti-voyeurism laws in a world where everyone has x-ray vision.

    The potential of being under the watch of cameras alone is likely to lower incidences of police brutality, and in practice it increases transparency greatly.
    Could video be used for manipulative purposes? Sure, any form of evidence can.
    What makes video unique?
    Kind of silly to argue the civilian populace might abuse perjury/falsification of evidence when the state is already miles ahead of them. :P

    I actually don't really have a big problem with the officer's behavior in this instance, though I think pulling a gun immediately on a speeder is more than a bit silly and unprofessional; I don't think it was criminal.
    I do have a problem with this "can do no wrong" attitude among law enforcement and criminal justice.
    I do not hate or dislike individuals involved in these fields; I personally know many officers who are good, honest, hardworking people, who put their safety and even lives on the line in order help people as best they can. I'd even wager to say the majority of them are as such.
    I do, however, hate when the system caters to individuals who abuse their power, lie, manipulate, intimidate, and coerce people for their own personal gains, or often enough, just for fun.
    Police and prosecutorial misconduct are practically the norm.
    To be honest I think its hostility towards the authorities which is most likely to make them as individuals break down and mess up, at least in developed western nations without histories or culture of authoritarianism.

    I really dont know about benefit of the doubt, if this thread is anything to go by no they dont, and the idea that more cameras equals less or no police violence is a little like the idea that more CCTV would prevent crime by the public, it hasnt worked in the UK at least, the most watched public in Europe.

    I'm not saying that a useful service cant be served by anyone witnessing misconduct or crime and maybe sometimes filming it is better than giving a testamony which isnt worth a damn because the individual involved gets stressed under pressure and forgets or misremembers things.

    On the other hand this can be seriously abused, it can cause the problem in the first place, the sorts of concerns people seem to have about surveillance by the state seem to evaporate once they thinks its being carried out by someone else, possibly someone much less scrupulous, accountable or competent ironically.

  4. #24
    Oberon
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    I see no basis in law (at least, in first principles of law) for the premise that recording the public actions of public servants can be a criminal act. When an officer is interacting with a suspect, he is certainly there to function in part as a witness. Anything you say can, indeed, be used against you in a court of law, whether you are actually under arrest or merely being detained for questioning. Law enforcement agencies are certainly willing to use recording devices on these occasions to ensure that the words and actions of people on the scene are recorded for the consideration of the court. I believe that, as a matter of course, this tool should cut both ways, and that suspects and witnesses should also be allowed to use recording devices on these occasions.

    The interests of a court are best served by a true representation of events, and a true representation of events is promoted by recording devices such as video cameras and tape recorders.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I see no basis in law (at least, in first principles of law) for the premise that recording the public actions of public servants can be a criminal act. When an officer is interacting with a suspect, he is certainly there to function in part as a witness. Anything you say can, indeed, be used against you in a court of law, whether you are actually under arrest or merely being detained for questioning. Law enforcement agencies are certainly willing to use recording devices on these occasions to ensure that the words and actions of people on the scene are recorded for the consideration of the court. I believe that, as a matter of course, this tool should cut both ways, and that suspects and witnesses should also be allowed to use recording devices on these occasions.

    The interests of a court are best served by a true representation of events, and a true representation of events is promoted by recording devices such as video cameras and tape recorders.
    That was a damn good analysis Oberon... Damn good analysis.

  6. #26

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    Its got that all so academic feel about it

  7. #27
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its got that all so academic feel about it
    I can show you my antler collection if it'll make you feel more kindly toward me.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I can show you my antler collection if it'll make you feel more kindly toward me.
    That I really dont understand

    Theoretically I've no problem with this, on the other hand I do believe that its part of the modern myth that technology can and will solve most of our problems, whether its with public services or the appropriate role of authority and force etc.

    It also does incorporate all the hazards I mentioned earlier, it the state could abuse this technology private citizens are just as likely to too. I think I mentioned about teachers and social workers in the UK being driven to distraction and then the fallout being recorded without context and circulated. What you got to say about that? When you're on the job you dont have rights?

  9. #29
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That I really dont understand

    Theoretically I've no problem with this, on the other hand I do believe that its part of the modern myth that technology can and will solve most of our problems, whether its with public services or the appropriate role of authority and force etc.

    It also does incorporate all the hazards I mentioned earlier, it the state could abuse this technology private citizens are just as likely to too. I think I mentioned about teachers and social workers in the UK being driven to distraction and then the fallout being recorded without context and circulated. What you got to say about that? When you're on the job you dont have rights?
    I don't think that videotaping policemen doing police work should be a crime, specifically because the court and the public have a vested interest in an accurate record of events.

    That's a far cry from declaring that technology is a panacea for anything. As for teachers and social workers in the UK, I really don't care. I don't trust either public schools or social services in the US any further than I can throw them.

  10. #30
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That I really dont understand
    I meant that I'm both academic and completely redneck, if that makes sense to you.

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