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  1. #11
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Why'd you feel the need to post just to say what we already knew?
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  2. #12
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I don't think I really need to explain myself here, you gals can probably already guess where I stand.
    Behind a good woman?

  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I don't think I really need to explain myself here, you gals can probably already guess where I stand.
    In the Perpetually And Inevitably Singles section?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #14
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Anybody besides me smell bait?
    I was being as direct as direct could be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I would... but I know how ENTPs think.
    Some people are often suspicious that I'm going to use their thoughts against them, or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    But I would go for equal educational opportunities, full reproduction rights, and no female genital mutilation for a start. You know, the basic stuff. Don't keep us barefoot, pregnant, illiterate, and chained to the stove, kinda thing. For all women.

    Everybody's list is a little different.
    In your society, do you see a lot of relevance with regards to the bolded?

    What kind of actions and/or thoughts have you taken to ensure that we're moving along with the progress you envision?

    I.e., I'm asking about the practical applicability of these views themselves, within a person who views self as a feminist. What do these views enable you to do/be that is different than those who do not identify with a feminist label?

    [not just you, but general "you" who also identify with some aspect of feminism]

  5. #15
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    So, who sets the bar? And who is aiming to be allowed to reach the same bar? Wouldn't that process be indirectly reiterating the same issue one is trying to fight against?

    "I want to be equal to a man." <- isn't that setting the bar kind of low?
    To me, the Tomato Nation quote isn't really about reaching a bar- it's about equality of the sexes in the sense that people would be free to pursue their chosen paths without being held back by their gender. Whether that means a woman who wants to excel in a male-dominated career field OR a man who wants to de-emphasize breadwinning in favor of doing more of the hands-on parenting that is usually the domain of mothers. People would be free to pursue what they want to pursue, not what they are expected to want to pursue.

    And that's just in Western culture. There's a lot more ground to be won in many undeveloped or developing nations where women are still very much second-class citizens or even property.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #16
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    To me, the Tomato Nation quote isn't really about reaching a bar- it's about equality of the sexes in the sense that people would be free to pursue their chosen paths without being held back by their gender. Whether that means a woman who wants to excel in a male-dominated career field OR a man who wants to de-emphasize breadwinning in favor of doing more of the hands-on parenting that is usually the domain of mothers. People would be free to pursue what they want to pursue, not what they are expected to want to pursue.

    And that's just in Western culture. There's a lot more ground to be won in many undeveloped or developing nations where women are still very much second-class citizens or even property.
    Yes this pretty much sums up my views on the matter.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I was being as direct as direct could be.



    Some people are often suspicious that I'm going to use their thoughts against them, or something.



    In your society, do you see a lot of relevance with regards to the bolded?

    What kind of actions and/or thoughts have you taken to ensure that we're moving along with the progress you envision?

    I.e., I'm asking about the practical applicability of these views themselves, within a person who views self as a feminist. What do these views enable you to do/be that is different than those who do not identify with a feminist label?
    I was teasing. Sorry -- I should have smilied, but I couldn't find the one I was looking for.

    I live and work in an affluent and well-educated part of the world, so, no, I don't see a lot of women with those problems, but I am very aware that they exist.

    But as far as what feminism has allowed me to do that I would not have been able to do if I were not a feminist:
    1. Risk my financial well-being because of depending on a man to support me.
    2. Have children because I see no function for myself other than to have children.
    3. Neglect my education because of being raised to think that education of women is useless (since they will just get knocked up anyway).
    4. Fear to tread my own path because I am so conditioned by stereotypes about what women should be that I can't see who I might be.
    5. Feel I am incomplete and inferior because I am not in a relationship and actually prefer to live alone.
    6. Feel common spirit with women all over the globe just because they are women, no matter what their circumstance.

    Off the top of my head...

    ETA: What do I do to promote my vision? Contribute to NOW and Planned Parenthood, and live my own life as fully realized as possible without apology for it not fitting in with what a woman's life should be according to many.

  8. #18
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    What do these views enable you to do/be that is different than those who do not identify with a feminist label?
    I don't think the label is important. It's the mindset. If you think you're a second-class citizen, you behave like one. You are self-limiting, in addition to being subject to the artificial limits and barriers imposed by society. You perpetuate the problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #19
    Ginkgo
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    Are women equal? No.

    Should women be treated as equals through some sort of egalitarian delusion? Yes.

  10. #20
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Behind a good woman?
    If he's lucky, all night long

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