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  1. #181
    THIS bitch stringstheory's Avatar
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    i had a whole post responding to this and i have no idea what happened to it

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Ps- by asking me what a "natural" woman is, you are essentially asking me what a true woman is. A Scotsman is a Scotsman is a Scotsman.
    i was re-reading this part of the discussion and it sort of occurred to me that i think we were actually saying the same thing here..

    i have plenty of suggestions if you're interested in learning some more i think Judith Butler's theory of gender performativity might be of interest to you. she's pretty out of the box, but...that's why i love her

    this theory is one of the basic tenants of my idea of feminism. i wouldn't recommend reading her entire writings on the topic unless you want to invest some serious time into doing so as she's a ridiculously difficult read. i recall spending 45 minutes on the first paragraph alone.

    Playing With Gender: Judith Butler and Gender Performativity - Blogcritics Culture
    Introduction to Judith Butler, Module on Gender and Sex

    i wrote a paper where i examined the homo-erotic and performative aspects of hyper-masculine behaviour in the movie A Clockwork Orange, if a concrete application of this theory interests you

    i also highly recommend exploring the theory of intersectionality and reading Audre Lorde's essay "The Master's Tools Will Never Dismantle The Master's House" addressing and critiquing the problem of racism in feminism. Views of feminism held by people of colour can be VERY different than those held by white feminists.

    Intersectionality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Feminist postcolonial theory: a reader - Google Books

    that should be enough, i'm sure

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I have had some people, IRL, tell me, "You do [X] like a guy."

    My response usually is, "Nah, you just need to expand your definition of what it means to be a woman."
    ha! i get this a lot too. my best friend tells me "you're SO not a girl" all the time.
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  2. #182
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    "How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?

    Doesn't matter. Feminists can't change anything."

  3. #183
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    "How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?

    Doesn't matter. Feminists can't change anything."
    Ahem. The joke goes:

    "How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?"

    "That's not funny."

  4. #184
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    Feminists don't change lightbulbs, that's a man's work!

  5. #185
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    "How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?

    Doesn't matter. Feminists can't change anything."
    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Ahem. The joke goes:

    "How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?"

    "That's not funny."
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Feminists don't change lightbulbs, that's a man's work!


    I see we got jokes, huh.

    "How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?"

    "A whole group. One to actually do it, the rest to kick the men's asses who dare say it's a man's job."


  6. #186
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post


    I see we got jokes, huh.

    "How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?"

    "A whole group. One to actually do it, the rest to kick the men's asses who dare say it's a man's job."

    And you say it's not about man-hating...


  7. #187
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    It's amazing how a little humor can stirr things up a bit

  8. #188
    Senior Member Lucas's Avatar
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    The main problem that I have with feminist authors is that they seem married to the idea that "patriarchy" is a conscious conspiracy, designed inherently to oppress one class, women, while benefiting one class, men. I do not think either men or women can be considered as a class, because except in sexual areas, they lack uniform interests.

    That said, I far prefer the original 1st wave feminism to 2nd and 3rd wave, but that is more linked to my distaste for Marx and Gramsci, whose ideologies seem far more present later on. Cultural changes seem to me like they should be created via cultural means, while 2nd and 3rd wave seem to have adopted government policy as the solution for everything.

    Anyone read/have any reaction to this article?
    "Those are my principles and if you don't like them......well, I have others"

    -Groucho Marx

    "The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

    - Frederich Nietzsche

  9. #189
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas View Post
    That said, I far prefer the original 1st wave feminism to 2nd and 3rd wave, but that is more linked to my distaste for Marx and Gramsci, whose ideologies seem far more present later on. Cultural changes seem to me like they should be created via cultural means, while 2nd and 3rd wave seem to have adopted government policy as the solution for everything.
    Seeing as how the 1st wave did more to change de jure discrimination than any latter movement, I don't see how you can say it wasn't as focused on government policy. I think it was more focused on government policy.

    The second-wave and the ill-defined third-wave have become progressively more focused on cultural abstractions and have indeed had less to do with making official policies. To the extent that they have, however, I can't blame them because de facto discrimination is rather difficult to get rid of by entirely informal means.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #190
    Senior Member Lucas's Avatar
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    Seeing as how the 1st wave did more to change de jure discrimination than any latter movement, I don't see how you can say it wasn't as focused on government policy. I think it was more focused on government policy.

    The second-wave and the ill-defined third-wave have become progressively more focused on cultural abstractions and have indeed had less to do with making official policies. To the extent that they have, however, I blame them because de facto discrimination is rather difficult to get rid of by entirely informal means.
    Right, but the reason I do not have a problem with the first wave focusing on government policy is that they were fighting de jure discrimination. I simply believe that we should solve problems within the realm of the problem, so if the problem is governmental, then the solution should be governmental, but if it is cultural, as de facto descrimination is, then the solution should not be governmental it should be cultural.

    The problem I have with using laws to combat de facto descrimination is that they are too blunt an instrument to deal with the complexities of cultural issues, and so they are almost always misapplied.
    "Those are my principles and if you don't like them......well, I have others"

    -Groucho Marx

    "The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."

    - Frederich Nietzsche

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