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  1. #171
    THIS bitch stringstheory's Avatar
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    Can i ask why? i feel like a lot of that has been explored but is there something else you're looking to touch on? I don't want to leave anything out but since i feel this i kind of need specifics. Sorry
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  2. #172
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Except that you're starting from the operating premise that men have had the advantage. I want to look at the question outside of this premise.
    Ah cool. But, can you first combine these two thoughts ^ & V? Cuz otherwise, I'm not seeing the connection of how that premise is not relevant....

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Not quite. More like, compare historically the burdens imposed by society upon men compared to those upon women.

    I.e, how do you seperate responsibility from advantage within a power dynamic?

  3. #173
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Ah cool. But, can you first combine these two thoughts ^ & V? Cuz otherwise, I'm not seeing the connection of how that premise is not relevant....




    I.e, how do you seperate responsibility from advantage within a power dynamic?
    For one, are we looking at a power dynamic, or are we looking at a social organization? Second, what are the possible power dynamics/social organizations given the biological and material constraints humans have upon themselves?

  4. #174
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringstheory View Post
    Can i ask why?
    It's quite simple. It doesn't suit his argument so he prefers to ignore it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #175
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    For one, are we looking at a power dynamic, or are we looking at a social organization?
    The birth of such a social organization was as a direct reaction/response to said power dynamic existing in society. It didn't appear out of thin air.

    You tell me how to seperately look at each (or your Ne), such that we may draw accurate conclusions/judgements.

    Second, what are the possible power dynamics/social organizations given the biological and material constraints humans have upon themselves?
    Naturalistic fallacy.

    If one has a mind, as evolved as homo sapiens, use it. Not as a crutch, but, use it.

  6. #176
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    Hey Q I'll respond later but my head is aching something shrill at the moment.

  7. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    That's the thing though. You don't need to be in a position of power, certainly not over women, to influence them. This, to me, sounds like a peculiar statement - that you think you need to have some power over another to facilitate any kind of action.
    Hmm, I wouldn't say "over" another. Of course power is a tug and pull process as long as there's more than one person involved, so yes the nature of power is like a currency - some have more than others. But, like Carnegie and other philanthropists did and do, you could relinquish amounts of power to liberate people. Still, I'm deviating off topic.

    As long as you can generate critical inquiry - let them exercise their autonomy and free will to do with that what they will.

    Simple physics - action/reaction.

    So any action, reactions, inactions all generate a ripple effect. Thoughts manifested can snowball "action". Slowly turning it into practising what one preaches.

    It can be as simple as changing your own outlook of your first line of inquiry to evaluating situations. Or how you respond to situations presented to you.

    For example, empower yourself. Your own image. Remember, in gender politics, "man" is the other half of the equation. In places where it's primarily a dichotomy, aim to make it complementary.
    Snow ball like this thread?

    Yes, "man" is the other half of the dichotomy; so in order for women to have fair representation, men must as well. That means that men would take rolls that would otherwise deemed womanly.

    This will ultimately lead to a radical shift in how people view the genders, so much so that as a collective, we won't really have a consensus about what constitutes being a man or a woman - especially if we switch the rolls around completely.

    We will, however, have personal preferences when it comes to relationships. We still will have mother an father figures who play a significant roll in molding our notions of gender. The stereotypes can't be abolished completely, just changed into more fulfilling images.


    Like such thoughts:

    Reclaim that as a potential-worthy self-identification. Choose different adjectives to view yourself.

    What is "frail"? Not brute strength? Why does every man need to fill that niche of brute strength?

    Why can't the strength of your whimsical imagination be an example of masculinity?
    This really nudged my perspective. You're basically encouraging me to redirect the way I gain a self-esteem. Instead of looking outside oneself and encapsulating a self-image; one should look inside themselves and then project outwards. It's saying "There's no legitimate reason why I can't be myself as long as I can find effective leverage within my environment". I hope that makes sense.

    I have had some people, IRL, tell me, "You do [X] like a guy."
    You've sparked my curiosity.

    My response usually is, "Nah, you just need to expand your definition of what it means to be a woman."




    Even here, if you can be critical with your evaluations of your actions and interactions with those around you, and whether your judgements are knee-jerk reactions to gender socializations or whether that line of thinking is fair because it makes sense.

    E.g.,



    You had a person in the household of 3, who couldn't and didn't want to do X. However, X needs to be done to maintain an aspect of the household. Thus, the other two shared the task of X as they were able and capable.

    No assigning gender, just evaluating the situation at an individual level. And, supporting an outcome if it's the most common sensical.

    Having a double thought, or pointing it out as if it's out of the ordinary is fine to make a point, but, question/challenge why such a scenario feels out of the ordinary to you when you use the greater society as a mirror of reflection?
    It's not that I'm having cognitive dissonance as a result of a collective view. It's more like "what would she be inclined to do?" So, if she felt that gender rolls would bind us to certain responsibilities, then I might take it upon myself to challenge her views.

    I think some of the images we propagate are prejudice to sex. For instance, when is the last time you saw a commercial on TV with a man using a swiffer wet jet or washing dishes? They hone in on specific demographics when making ads but I see this becoming more and more diluted as time goes on.

    Because it seems like that was how your household operated....so I'm assuming it was perfectly ordinary and natural for you. However, even with you practicing in actions such roles, there's always that question, as posed by expectations of society/socialization....
    Yes. Even this conversation is socialization.

    Meta-analysis. Question why this statement raises within you, itself, an evaluation of whether you are being part of the hegemonic norm or whether you're acting outside it.

    Why does doing dishes = a lens of dichotomy [manly/womanly]?
    I'm not going off of my own values, but this is what I see -

    Doing dishes (hah, I find this example amusing for some reason) was preferable for the woman to take part in as opposed to the man because it existed within the sphere of "housework" as opposed to "work". Now, we have two separate places which actually have a cultural etiological root - hunter gatherer mechanics. These mechanics weren't universal to all ancient societies or tribes. There were abundant Native American tribes who were actually Matriarchal, and probably more in other areas of the world. The 'image' of this dichotomy does not need to be preserved.

    I'm interested in your question because it assumes that I am conflicted between affiliating more with the collective or more with my own values, which I don't think I explicitly stated. Sure, everyone has a process of tug and pull, but yeah.

    The hegemonic norm is a falsehood and so are the ideals of those who work outside of it. You see, if I stated that I am averse to being part of the norm, I would be acknowledging the legitimacy of the norm. So the most desirable route is to be an iconoclast through and through, not submitting to those norms because they simply don't exist in my mind and instead creating my own.

    Also, openness and willingness to learn is another thing you can do.

    Say, to not write off "feminism" without truly understanding (wanting to) its spectrum of positions [just because you may have bought into the stigma that the label of feminism carries - mostly perpetuated via stereotypes].

    If this topic is not of interest enough to learn [which is fair enough, as there's so many interesting things in this world/issues for each of us differently to focus our passions on]....

    ...but, how about then, at least, refraining from perpetuating the stereotypes of feminism by not partaking in bashing it before truly understanding it? To not be contrary without first allowing critical thought and effort into understanding the subject which you critique?

    Be humble and honest to learn.

    Or....mock gender roles if it doesn't make sense. Like so:





    Your sphere of influence is less limited than you think.



    That is true. It might certainly reduce your pool in quantity, but it doesn't affect quality as quality is subjective to you. Thus, just like with attractiveness, there's someone to complement everyone. Someone who finds your brand of "masculinity", their brand of maleness.

    ***

    There's no guilt I want to raise in you. Just, hopefully, critical inquiry.
    I think I was too critical of the basic idea of feminism and how it was defined and not open enough to what feminism implicates.

    I think I'll be more critical in challenging others if they seem to be adhering to some unwarranted gender idea. I could learn alot. Is there anything you would have me learn in particular?

  8. #178
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Thumbs up La Lutte Continue

    No one gives up power voluntarily, and the patriarchy is no exception.

    By its very nature power can't be given, it can only be taken.

    So women must take power from the patriarchy.

    This is a dangerous course, a bit like taking a big lump of meat from a hungry tiger.

    And taking power from a hungry tiger requires organisation and deception.

    We see that organisation works with the Unions. And in spite of what our parents have told us, deception also works.

    However it is wise to remember that the patriarchy will respond to their loss of power negatively - in tactical terms this is called the backlash.

    So the fight is long and goes to the strong - fortunately women have greater staying power.

    And women have a powerful ally in liberal democracy which has already given us the abolition of slavery and the emancipation of women.

    We see this today with our first woman Prime Minister.

    Julia Gillard succeeded by deception and organisation. Julia promised loyalty but stabbed the male and elected Prime Minister in the back and took his position.

    But then came the expected backlash from the patriarchy and the former male Prime Minister struck back, so effectively that Julia was forced to take Kevin back and run her election campaign on a joint ticket of Julia and Kevin.

    So rather than loose power the patriarchy nobbled Julia making it more likely that our next elected Prime Minister will be a man.

    La lutte continue.

  9. #179
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    as an interesting note on men and feminism, my best friend's dad was actually the president of their local feminist society for a while... the women were pretty cautious around him at first because he's male and they were suspicious of his motives for being there, but when they realized that he has 3 daughters and wants for them to have exactly the same opportunities as any boy would have, they were quite supportive

    feminism... wanting women to have the same opportunities to succeed as men do is different from burning your bra and saying that all men are good for is reproductive purposes... that's taking it too far and giving a good idea a bad name... feminism gets the same rep as the word liberal used to in the early 90s and late 80s (not that it is looked on favorably today )

    I like men, I don't want to oppress them! I'd just rather not get told by my boss that I'm never getting promoted because I'm a girl and she thinks that because of that I'm more likely to hand over the shop keys to a burgaler than a man is (did that bitch even KNOW me?! )
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  10. #180
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    as an interesting note on men and feminism, my best friend's dad was actually the president of their local feminist society for a while... the women were pretty cautious around him at first because he's male and they were suspicious of his motives for being there, but when they realized that he has 3 daughters and wants for them to have exactly the same opportunities as any boy would have, they were quite supportive
    One has to remember that some of the earliest and most influential feminists were men. People like John Stuart Mill.
    I like men, I don't want to oppress them! I'd just rather not get told by my boss that I'm never getting promoted because I'm a girl and she thinks that because of that I'm more likely to hand over the shop keys to a burgaler than a man is (did that bitch even KNOW me?! )
    And that some of the worst anti-feminists were (and still are) women...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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