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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringstheory View Post
    I was actually pleasantly surprised to find out that this is not true. This is another situation where i'm inclined to believe that while marketing could lead someone to believe one thing, reality is different; in this case, The numbers are much more balanced than you might think. From a 2009 study by the Entertainment Software Agency

    http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2009.pdf

    Now what i'd love to see are some statistics on what kinds of different demographics the genders are playing (especially where they overlap) but gender representations extend farther than video or computer games that are typically designated for "hardcore" gamers.



    Heh, yeah...i was usually there with them after kicking their ass in Golden Eye 64



    no i know, but i've had discussions with a lot of people who seem really intent on demonizing and arguing with a type of feminism that i've honestly rarely seen in real life so it's a little baffling to me; some in this thread have made arguments that were eerily similar to these.

    GOOD GOD! Thank you. Wow... that's fascinating.

  2. #162
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Very perceptive Q.

    The truth is that I have only a modicum of power over the actions of women in general, but a higher sphere of influence with those who I am intimately involved with or in the same family with (In other words, I am not a political activist :P). All relations I have had with women of either nature had a consensual vibe to them. I have never told a woman, in my life, that it was her chief duty as a woman to do anything.

    I was raised in a household that was conservative and quasi-traditionalist. However, my mother had physical limitations and emotional aversions to doing things that would be considered traditionalist, like making food, washing clothes/ dishes. So most of the time my father and I were filling rolls that would normally be considered womanly. In other words, I have no opinion about what "gender rolls" should be. I mean, the very notion is basically abolished from my brain, especially when I'm referring to any woman in particular. My perception of the world was not forged in a way where I would ask myself "what should women or men do", but rather, what needs to be done and how can we work together to achieve a goal? Sometimes, people are so caught up on who's responsible for an action that that action never really comes to fulfillment.

    I think that similar amounts of representation for both sexes can be found in the more secular areas of western society, but the primary suppression comes from more religions sects. Conservative Christians usually do not think it is proper for a woman to lead religious events unless there are no men involved. In other words, they are somewhat segregated. When I grew up, I always thought it was bizarre that women weren't more prominent in that regard; and so I asked some of the girls/women and also my mother why this was. I was usually met with a logic like "We've never done it that way, therefore it is wrong." Or, "That's not what the Bible says." This kind of teaching can be subtly oppressive and can probably sway females into not being very innovative or achievement oriented in other arenas of their lives.

    That being said, the public school that I was raised in was encouraging for both boys and girls in academics. Each sex was almost equally represented in achievements and accolades by the end of the year. The only real segregation I could think of was in the athletics departments, where boys and girls were obviously not physically equal. Men, on average, develop muscle mass because of higher amounts of testosterone and protein production than women; so much so that the girls on the cross country team paled in comparison to the boys. So it's really not even fair for them to be pitted against each other as though they were physically equal.

    Thank you for sharing so honestly.

    I enjoyed reading that.

    I feel like you're guilt tripping me for nothing.
    Nah. Thought is never for nothing.


    What exactly are you expecting of me?
    I am not asking for much. At it simplest....

    Critical inquiry. You don't even have to do anything more than leave your own mind - critical thinking - questioning gender roles in your own reflection.


    The truth is that I have only a modicum of power over the actions of women in general,
    That's the thing though. You don't need to be in a position of power, certainly not over women, to influence them. This, to me, sounds like a peculiar statement - that you think you need to have some power over another to facilitate any kind of action.

    As long as you can generate critical inquiry - let them exercise their autonomy and free will to do with that what they will.

    Simple physics - action/reaction.

    So any action, reactions, inactions all generate a ripple effect. Thoughts manifested can snowball "action". Slowly turning it into practising what one preaches.

    It can be as simple as changing your own outlook of your first line of inquiry to evaluating situations. Or how you respond to situations presented to you.

    For example, empower yourself. Your own image. Remember, in gender politics, "man" is the other half of the equation. In places where it's primarily a dichotomy, aim to make it complementary.

    Like such thoughts:

    There's also the problem where some women think that men should be masculine, which I am not particularly.

    I am frail and only able to run from danger.

    I write poetry, draw pictures of calm aminals and drink smoothies in my free time.

    Reclaim that as a potential-worthy self-identification. Choose different adjectives to view yourself.

    What is "frail"? Not brute strength? Why does every man need to fill that niche of brute strength?

    Why can't the strength of your whimsical imagination be an example of masculinity?

    I have had some people, IRL, tell me, "You do [X] like a guy."

    My response usually is, "Nah, you just need to expand your definition of what it means to be a woman."

    but a higher sphere of influence with those who I am intimately involved with or in the same family with (In other words, I am not a political activist :P).

    Even here, if you can be critical with your evaluations of your actions and interactions with those around you, and whether your judgements are knee-jerk reactions to gender socializations or whether that line of thinking is fair because it makes sense.

    E.g.,

    I was raised in a household that was conservative and quasi-traditionalist. However, my mother had physical limitations and emotional aversions to doing things that would be considered traditionalist, like making food, washing clothes/ dishes. So most of the time my father and I were filling rolls that would normally be considered womanly.
    You had a person in the household of 3, who couldn't and didn't want to do X. However, X needs to be done to maintain an aspect of the household. Thus, the other two shared the task of X as they were able and capable.

    No assigning gender, just evaluating the situation at an individual level. And, supporting an outcome if it's the most common sensical.

    Having a double thought, or pointing it out as if it's out of the ordinary is fine to make a point, but, question/challenge why such a scenario feels out of the ordinary to you when you use the greater society as a mirror of reflection?

    Because it seems like that was how your household operated....so I'm assuming it was perfectly ordinary and natural for you. However, even with you practicing in actions such roles, there's always that question, as posed by expectations of society/socialization....

    my father and I were filling rolls that would normally be considered womanly.
    Meta-analysis. Question why this statement raises within you, itself, an evaluation of whether you are being part of the hegemonic norm or whether you're acting outside it.

    Why does doing dishes = a lens of dichotomy [manly/womanly]?

    Also, openness and willingness to learn is another thing you can do.

    Say, to not write off "feminism" without truly understanding (wanting to) its spectrum of positions [just because you may have bought into the stigma that the label of feminism carries - mostly perpetuated via stereotypes].

    If this topic is not of interest enough to learn [which is fair enough, as there's so many interesting things in this world/issues for each of us differently to focus our passions on]....

    ...but, how about then, at least, refraining from perpetuating the stereotypes of feminism by not partaking in bashing it before truly understanding it? To not be contrary without first allowing critical thought and effort into understanding the subject which you critique?

    Be humble and honest to learn.

    Or....mock gender roles if it doesn't make sense. Like so:

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Don't get passive on us now.


    Your sphere of influence is less limited than you think.

    There's also the problem where some women think that men should be masculine, which I am not particularly.
    That is true. It might certainly reduce your pool in quantity, but it doesn't affect quality as quality is subjective to you. Thus, just like with attractiveness, there's someone to complement everyone. Someone who finds your brand of "masculinity", their brand of maleness.

    ***

    There's no guilt I want to raise in you. Just, hopefully, critical inquiry.
    Last edited by Qre:us; 08-06-2010 at 12:36 PM.

  3. #163
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    But that cat is out of the bag. We're not going back to a purely behavioral model (e.g. cultures like those of our early hominid ancestors). What is the harm in being more evolved culturally than biologically? Can we not acknowledge that the instincts exist, but also apply the logic we've evolved to be capable of using to whether or not they should be heeded in modern society? Society works against a lot of our instincts- violence, for example. We don't just throw our hands up and say "Oh well, humans are primates and primates like to bash each other's skulls in. Must be okay!" So if there is an instinctive basis for the oppression of women, which I don't disagree there is (sexual dimorphism can be like that), why would our reaction to that be different from the instinctive basis for violence? Personally, I appreciate that I live in a society that doesn't accept acting thoughtlessly on our animal instincts.

    I imagine it's easier to be satisfied with the way things have always been when its your own gender that has always had the advantage.
    If one were to frame gender roles in terms of responsibilities, rather than advantages, would things seem as inequitable to you?

  4. #164
    THIS bitch stringstheory's Avatar
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    ^^ how do you mean?
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  5. #165
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Those with more advantages has more responsibilities. As, wth more power comes greater responsibility (or so said Spiderman).

    I'm guessing that's what he means.

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    THIS bitch stringstheory's Avatar
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    hmm well...i guess i was looking for more of an example then. i'm inclined to think that shared power would = shared responsibilities. ideally speaking of course, and assuming that more power = more responsibility is true.
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  7. #167
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Those with more advantages has more responsibilities. As, wth more power comes greater responsibility (or so said Spiderman).

    I'm guessing that's what he means.
    Not quite. More like, compare historically the burdens imposed by society upon men compared to those upon women.

  8. #168
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Not quite. More like, compare historically the burdens imposed by society upon men compared to those upon women.
    Same sentiment I had. Hence, my response to stringstheory is still relevant to your ^:

    Quote Originally Posted by stringstheory View Post
    and assuming that more power = more responsibility is true.
    Yeah....here's where I pull the breaks as well, with this assumption.

    As, theoretically, more power could equal more responsibility, but in practice, it likely means more probability of abuse of said responsibility.

  9. #169
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    I hate feminism but I love the clitoris. Is that enough to reach neutrality?
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  10. #170
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Same sentiment I had. Hence, my response to stringstheory is still relevant to your ^:
    Except that you're starting from the operating premise that men have had the advantage. I want to look at the question outside of this premise.

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