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  1. #151
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    You don't need clitoral stimulation to get wet.
    I know. But that's one way to get there quickly.

  2. #152
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    I know. But that's one way to get there quickly.
    What's your rush? :workout:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #153
    THIS bitch stringstheory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Yes, but it looked like you were saying it was a function of the clitoris, when it's more of a ...side-effect. I'm pretty sure you could still get wet without one, is what I'm trying to say.
    Ah, ok. well wetness can absolutely happen in other ways, but i'd argue that if one way to elicit pleasure is through clitoral stimulation then that's one of the purposes of the clitoris' existence. If that pleasure can make sex less painful for the woman, and thus more willing to engage, i see it as a function. that's how i see it and how i interpreted neptunesnet's post.

    You seemed to be suggesting that non-lubricated (i.e. non-aroused) penetration is an option. That would be a big from me. (Unless there's something medically wrong with the woman, in which case use synthetic lube,ffs)
    ohhhhh no, not at all.

    i think the point of bringing the function of pleasure to light was a response to the idea that FGM "doesn't cease sexual function". Maybe it doesn't if sexual function = only reproduction, but if we go with the idea that pleasure is one of the functions of intercourse, especially for women, then it absolutely does interfere. Part of what makes FGM abhorrent to me is the implication of "oh well it doesn't directly damage the ability to reproduce, pleasure is irrelevant (or even bad)". it's blatant disregard for any enjoyment a woman might get out of sex.
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  4. #154
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringstheory View Post
    Part of what makes FGM abhorrent to me is the implication of "oh well it doesn't directly damage the ability to reproduce, pleasure is irrelevant/bad". it's blatant disregard for any enjoyment a woman might get out of sex.
    No arguments here. It's an abomination.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #155
    Ginkgo
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  6. #156
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    If I were to encourage women to do anything, I would encourage them to pursue their personal goals and for others not to hold them back unless they were planning to divide and conquer.
    Btw, reading this, two thoughts came to mind:

    (1) patronizing, preaching

    I.e., Where's the action, satisfaction?

    It's all good and well to "talk"/encourage, but, practically speaking, what do you, personally, do towards this aim that you preach about?

    It sounds very zen and encouraging, but how does it practically translate?

    (2)


    I can only sympathize.
    To a degree, yes, because you are bound by your sex* to not be able to fully relate

    * To note: I'm generalizing ^ as there are cases, such as transgender individuals, for whom the malleability of sex ->to-> gender is intrinsicially more inherent, innate....but, as I don't believe this pertains to you,Tater, hence, my using the term "bound by your sex".

    *phew*

    gender is a complex issue


    *****

    CAN MAN = FEMINIST?

    Hmm......

    IMO, there are a lot of stuff, you, as a man, the counterpart to this equation, can do. In your daily (inter)actions, etc. Basically, in your social sphere. That influences the way the scale tips.

    Feminism is not just a woman's issue.

    If there are some rational arguments within the sphere of feminism, anyone, should/could stand up to support that - if it makes sense/is just/ethical. Regardless of gender.

    Don't get passive on us now.

    /

  7. #157
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    I think most of the idea of feminism is ridiculous.
    Feminism is not about equality, something that I actually like.
    Feminists try to gain all the perks of being a man, while not taking on any of the responsibilities and downsides with it.

    It's just a matter of chemistry and biology.
    Estrogen makes you act female, testosterone makes you act like men.
    High levels of estrogen turns people into emotional bundles that cry for nothing.
    High levels of testosterone makes people aggressive as hell and usually physically strong.
    Those two are extremes, but that's where women and men are different.
    Men are naturally stronger and more aggressive because they are, were and always will be built to protect the women and the children of the group.

    Women are... Well... Women...
    Gossip/can't keep secrets, overly emotional, irrational/hormonal, crazy...
    And incredibly cute.

    I can admit that I am teasing you a bit, but it's only seriousness packaged like a joke.
    Why? I can't take feminism seriously.
    I've even done college studies on the subject. Mandatory stuff...
    Really tried to take it all in and give it a shot, but the entire mindset just pisses me off.

    I'll buy equality, but we are different.
    And, you know, reality is that you will only have as much power as men permit.
    I feel dirty saying that, but if you look at it in the light of realism, it is true.
    Men have always taken over because we are generally speaking stronger, meaner and more aggressive.
    Humans have always been on edge with each other or other threats, predators etc.
    This has never ceased to be the case.
    How many times when you walk home in the dark of night haven't you wished that you had a big sturdy guy with you?
    That's another point where men and women are different.
    Another point on why we need each other, or rather to remind you why you need us.
    We always know why you are needed.
    Don't take that wrong, either, i'm the most pussy-whipped guy out there when i'm in a relationship.
    All voluntarily. I even enjoy doing the cooking, cleaning, dishes, laundry etc at a regular basis.

    We need you because you think differently, feel differently.
    You enable us to feel things that most of us don't, normally.
    Us together can produce children for the continued survival of our kind.
    We're usually good at different things, and none of those qualities should be looked down upon.
    Women and men are meant to complement each other, not to be alike.
    Regardless if you are a man or a woman, you deserve your liberty, your free right to express yourself, your opinions and your right to do what you want as long as you are able and it won't hurt others.

    I realize some are going to dislike this a lot.
    On the other hand, I think most people with common sense would agree.
    I'm just ballsy enough to stand up and challenge this bullshit. It's gone too far.
    Before I respond to your post, in depth ....

    May I ask you to discuss which feminist authors you have read, and what specific philosophies, arguments, and/or schools of thoughts you found to be relevant to this statement of yours?

    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    I think most of the idea of feminism is ridiculous.
    And explain why.

    E.g., In your analysis, what are your top 5 most "ridiculous" feminist discourse you have learned about?

    I only ask so that I may properly engage with you if I can first know what you consider ridiculous within all the schools of its thoughts, and why.

    Cheers!


  8. #158
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    Very perceptive Q.

    The truth is that I have only a modicum of power over the actions of women in general, but a higher sphere of influence with those who I am intimately involved with or in the same family with (In other words, I am not a political activist :P). All relations I have had with women of either nature had a consensual vibe to them. I have never told a woman, in my life, that it was her chief duty as a woman to do anything.

    I was raised in a household that was conservative and quasi-traditionalist. However, my mother had physical limitations and emotional aversions to doing things that would be considered traditionalist, like making food, washing clothes/ dishes. So most of the time my father and I were filling rolls that would normally be considered womanly. In other words, I have no opinion about what "gender rolls" should be. I mean, the very notion is basically abolished from my brain, especially when I'm referring to any woman in particular. My perception of the world was not forged in a way where I would ask myself "what should women or men do", but rather, what needs to be done and how can we work together to achieve a goal? Sometimes, people are so caught up on who's responsible for an action that that action never really comes to fulfillment.

    I think that similar amounts of representation for both sexes can be found in the more secular areas of western society, but the primary suppression comes from more religions sects. Conservative Christians usually do not think it is proper for a woman to lead religious events unless there are no men involved. In other words, they are somewhat segregated. When I grew up, I always thought it was bizarre that women weren't more prominent in that regard; and so I asked some of the girls/women and also my mother why this was. I was usually met with a logic like "We've never done it that way, therefore it is wrong." Or, "That's not what the Bible says." This kind of teaching can be subtly oppressive and can probably sway females into not being very innovative or achievement oriented in other arenas of their lives.

    That being said, the public school that I was raised in was encouraging for both boys and girls in academics. Each sex was almost equally represented in achievements and accolades by the end of the year. The only real segregation I could think of was in the athletics departments, where boys and girls were obviously not physically equal. Men, on average, develop muscle mass because of higher amounts of testosterone and protein production than women; so much so that the girls on the cross country team paled in comparison to the boys. So it's really not even fair for them to be pitted against each other as though they were physically equal.


    What exactly are you expecting of me? I feel like you're guilt tripping me for nothing.

    Though... I have an idea...

    There's also the problem where some women think that men should be masculine, which I am not particularly.

    I am frail and only able to run from danger.

    I write poetry, draw pictures of calm aminals and drink smoothies in my free time.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringstheory View Post


    Right...there are different school of thought in all kinds of social movements or even politics, this isn't any different. it's unfortunate but this is why i think that progress takes a long time, and complete progress is highly improbable, regardless of the issue (because everyone has varying experiences, so no one can really agree ) but that's a whole other discussion.
    Well, this is interesting and this is why, while I am a liberal, I find liberal movements funny. "Complete Progress" is an oxymoron, because if it was complete, it would no longer be progressive. Yet, it's difficult not to think of any closure when talking about progress. Sometimes, even after one has tangibly drawn closure, they still have a progressive view. So they wind up fixing the errors of the past - in affect regressing.


    Personally, i think all of these things tend to be connected in one way or another; that's part of why it's called a "system".

    In the past you've had more men encouraged to have jobs than women. Inevitably a lot of those jobs are going to involve marketing, mass media, legislation, etc. If men are more represented in these jobs, you're going to have a man's spin on things. This in and of itself is not a problem, but if you ask the question "where are the women?" you might see where the problem lies. If you have a predominantly male (and, arguably, straight and white) spin on things, you're missing out on a lot of other interpretations on life experiences...especially if they are being interpreted by people who do not actually LIVE those experiences. All walks of life are equally important. This is my main gripe with the system; i tend to focus more on mass media because that's a facet that interests me, but this can be applied to politics, religion, science, etc. as well
    I agree.

    Generally speaking, from my experience, the big question feminists ask is simply "where are the women"? For example, one semester i did a study of gender representations in video games throughout the years; it was interesting to note that the more women you had involved in the creation process, the more "empowering" i found the female character representations to be (and even the male ones, IMO)
    The gaming demographic is more than 90% male. Again, this ties back to that hunter mentality of aggression that males tend to exhibit more than females. I have seen an increase in female characters, but most of them are geared to be aesthetically pleasing to males, so much so that it can sometimes be degrading. Of course, the primary concern for video game makers, and anyone else trying to advertise a product is "What sells?", usually followed by "What makes a good game?", while everything else is a peripheral. So, if you are ever in that opportunity again, I would suggest you somehow integrate feminism into what would be profitable, though it might be a stretch.

    Remember that tree house in your old neighborhood where boys would congregate, make fart jokes and look at light porn they stole from their parents? That's the video game community.



    These are good points; i'm really in the camp of "neither are better or worse off as a whole". By making it a "men v. women" argument on either side turning it into a fight between them is diverting the blame from a complex system to simply the individuals (as well as adhering to a gender binary, thus excluding potential self-identified "others" from the discussion) and i'm not inclined to think that's going to solve anything. Neither sex is the "enemy" of the other.
    Good. Feminists can sometimes become reactionary in a way that emphasizes how the minority is elite. It's not elite, it just needs fair representation. What is fair? Honestly, it may not be equal but it is probably a notch higher than what it currently is in regards to feminism.

    What you describe is a problem but there's a lot more to it than this facet. Condeming an entire social movement because one find the tactics of some thoughts of feminism oppressive isn't a good idea. feminists themselves are constantly critiquing such schools of thought and various opinions exist on the subject. Like you pointed out earlier, there are many schools of thought on "feminism"; it's not a one dimensional way of thinking, as you can see in this thread. Why some people seem to be so stuck on that one dimension and ignoring thoughtful responses to such problems when, as far as I can tell, no one has been identifying with them or incorporating them into their own definition of feminism is beyond me.
    Just to be clear, I wasn't doing that.

  10. #160
    THIS bitch stringstheory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    The gaming demographic is more than 90% male. Again, this ties back to that hunter mentality of aggression that males tend to exhibit more than females. I have seen an increase in female characters, but most of them are geared to be aesthetically pleasing to males, so much so that it can sometimes be degrading. Of course, the primary concern for video game makers, and anyone else trying to advertise a product is "What sells?", usually followed by "What makes a good game?", while everything else is a peripheral. So, if you are ever in that opportunity again, I would suggest you somehow integrate feminism into what would be profitable, though it might be a stretch.
    I was actually pleasantly surprised to find out that this is not true. This is another situation where i'm inclined to believe that while marketing could lead someone to believe one thing, reality is different; in this case, The numbers are much more balanced than you might think. From a 2009 study by the Entertainment Software Agency

    http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2009.pdf

    Now what i'd love to see are some statistics on what kinds of different demographics the genders are playing (especially where they overlap) but gender representations extend farther than video or computer games that are typically designated for "hardcore" gamers.

    Remember that tree house in your old neighborhood where boys would congregate, make fart jokes and look at light porn they stole from their parents? That's the video game community.
    Heh, yeah...i was usually there with them after kicking their ass in Golden Eye 64

    Just to be clear, I wasn't doing that.
    no i know, but i've had discussions with a lot of people who seem really intent on demonizing and arguing with a type of feminism that i've honestly rarely seen in real life so it's a little baffling to me; some in this thread have made arguments that were eerily similar to these.
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