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  1. #141
    THIS bitch stringstheory's Avatar
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    So. many. words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Some of the doctrines of feminism are contradictory. For instance, anti-porn feminism and pro-sex feminism are at odds with each other because they are taking different angles to get at the same goal (To provide equal rights for women). The women's suffrage movement was entirely necessary, and similar movements will probably need to be executed in other places of the world. I'm not sure about all of the statistics.
    Right...there are different school of thought in all kinds of social movements or even politics, this isn't any different. it's unfortunate but this is why i think that progress takes a long time, and complete progress is highly improbable, regardless of the issue (because everyone has varying experiences, so no one can really agree ) but that's a whole other discussion.

    However, now in days, particularly in the western world, feminism has more to do with social identity politics. Feminists might ask themselves if women have fair representation in science, or politics, religion, or whatever. Eventually, it looks slightly goofy; but I think the primary concern is economics.
    Personally, i think all of these things tend to be connected in one way or another; that's part of why it's called a "system".

    In the past you've had more men encouraged to have jobs than women. Inevitably a lot of those jobs are going to involve marketing, mass media, legislation, etc. If men are more represented in these jobs, you're going to have a man's spin on things. This in and of itself is not a problem, but if you ask the question "where are the women?" you might see where the problem lies. If you have a predominantly male (and, arguably, straight and white) spin on things, you're missing out on a lot of other interpretations on life experiences...especially if they are being interpreted by people who do not actually LIVE those experiences. All walks of life are equally important. This is my main gripe with the system; i tend to focus more on mass media because that's a facet that interests me, but this can be applied to politics, religion, science, etc. as well

    Generally speaking, from my experience, the big question feminists ask is simply "where are the women"? For example, one semester i did a study of gender representations in video games throughout the years; it was interesting to note that the more women you had involved in the creation process, the more "empowering" i found the female character representations to be (and even the male ones, IMO)

    It's difficult to say which camp is worse off - men or women, simply because men are often subjugated to things like war, and many times more likely to be murdered. Of course, they are also more likely to be murderers. I think onemoretime addressed this when he/she said that women are generally protected because they are seen as equivalent to the livelihood of the family, and the family is equivalent to the livelihood of society.
    These are good points; i'm really in the camp of "neither are better or worse off as a whole". By making it a "men v. women" argument on either side turning it into a fight between them is diverting the blame from a complex system to simply the individuals (as well as adhering to a gender binary, thus excluding potential self-identified "others" from the discussion) and i'm not inclined to think that's going to solve anything. Neither sex is the "enemy" of the other.

    My friend once said that women are trained to communicate about their problems more, while men are more stoic and less complaining. If this is true, then wouldn't mothers train their sons to be less patriarchal and oppressive?
    Mothers can have influence yes; however there are a lot more prevalent and powerful societal forces involved than the parents. You cannot completely remove outside influences from reaching a child, it's just not that simple.

    I'm basically a humanist, so I support feminism as long as it's under the categorization of egalitarianism. However, when the arguments of feminists devolve into something that's just as oppressive as the patriarchy they're fighting against, I can't say I agree.
    What you describe is a problem but there's a lot more to it than this facet. Condeming an entire social movement because one find the tactics of some thoughts of feminism oppressive isn't a good idea. feminists themselves are constantly critiquing such schools of thought and various opinions exist on the subject. Like you pointed out earlier, there are many schools of thought on "feminism"; it's not a one dimensional way of thinking, as you can see in this thread. Why some people seem to be so stuck on that one dimension and ignoring thoughtful responses to such problems when, as far as I can tell, no one has been identifying with them or incorporating them into their own definition of feminism is beyond me.
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  2. #142
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    This thread went tl;dr so I only scanned it quickly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Equality simply means that one thing is equal to another. This is in terms of measurement. 5=5, 2=2, etc. However, because men are not women, they are not equal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Here's the misunderstanding - When you refer to equality, you are talking about the promotion of equal opportunity rights in a social sense.

    When I'm talking about equality, I'm talking about empirically measured properties.
    Equivocation fallacy.

    According to your logic black people <> white people since there are measurable differences (in skin tone). This is the weakest of all anti-feminist arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by mmhmm View Post
    i find her thoughts uncomfortable sometimes---outdated.
    her thing about the commune---sharing children and such.
    and her opposition about the pill. and her views on
    womankind... so i never got into it.

    but i wonder if there's a generational difference in reading it.
    i read it in 96? 97? so i was about 16 or 17. so that's 20plus
    years since it was first published.
    She was a bit naive and idealistic when she wrote it. But it's still thought-provoking, wonderfully erudite, and fantastically funny. I Germaine. There are better modern feminist writers to start out with, like Natasha Walter. But I think every woman should read The Female Eunuch and The Second Sex at some point in their education. Even if only to understand how far we've come; and to stem the the tide of complacency they should read contemporary works like The Equality Illusion and Backlash.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #143
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    If you damage the male's ability to orgasm, you damage his ability to reproduce.

    But females get pregnant whether they orgasm or not.
    The vagina is the place where the reproduction function happens.

    The clitoris only has one function, and it is not reproduction. The clitoris only exists to provide sexual pleasure. Unlike the penis, where the two functions are combined in one organ.

    Expecting most women to climax without clitoral stimulation is like expecting a man to come when you rub his balls. It might feel good, but it won't make you orgasm. In some cases perhaps etc etc yeah, maybe there's a guy who can come that way. But for most of them, that's not going to work. It's the same thing with ignoring or cutting off(!) the woman's clitoris. The only purpose of removing the clitoris is removing sexual pleasure. It's remotely possible she might still orgasm but mostly not -- and if she does, it's a miracle.
    Might I also add that by stimulating the clitoris sexual intercourse itself can be much more enjoyable. When a woman is aroused from clitoral stimulation, her vagina secretes a fluid that acts as a natural lubricant. It's the vagina's way of preparing itself for something to penetrate it. Without that fluid, penetration can be very uncomfortable for a woman, and sometimes not as pleasing for the man as well. So, the clitoris does have another purpose [Sorry if any of that was graphic, trying to be respectful but honest here]


    Also, a little more information about female orgasm for Fan of Townsend:

    Anorgasmia is regular difficulty reaching orgasm after ample sexual stimulation, causing personal distress. This is much more common in women than men. The physical structure of the act of coitus favors penile stimulation over clitoral stimulation. The location of the clitoris then often necessitates manual stimulation in order for the female to achieve orgasm. About 15 percent of women report difficulties with orgasm, and as many as 10 percent of women in the United States have never climaxed. Even women who orgasm on a regular basis only climax about 50 to 70 percent of the time.
    Anorgasmia is actually a very common occurrence, affecting at least 1 in 5 women worldwide.
    Situational anorgasmia: This means you are able to orgasm only during certain circumstances, such as during oral sex or masturbation. This is very common in women. In fact, about 80 percent of women experience orgasm only from stimulation of the clitoris.
    Sexual Intercourse | Wikipedia

    Anorgasmia in Women

  4. #144
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    fap fap fap

  5. #145
    THIS bitch stringstheory's Avatar
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    welp
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  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    Might I also add that by stimulating the clitoris sexual intercourse itself can be much more enjoyable. When a woman is aroused from clitoral stimulation, her vagina secretes a fluid that acts as a natural lubricant. It's the vagina's way of preparing itself for something to penetrate it. Without that fluid, penetration can be very uncomfortable for a woman, and sometimes not as pleasing for the man as well. So, the clitoris does have another purpose [Sorry if any of that was graphic, trying to be respectful but honest here]
    You don't need clitoral stimulation to get wet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    You don't need clitoral stimulation to get wet.
    not always but it's certainly an option to help achieve that goal...thus one of the purposes.
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  8. #148
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringstheory View Post
    not always but it's certainly an option to help achieve that goal...thus one of the purposes.
    Only because it (can) increase arousal and all the physiological changes that flow from that. There's no direct relationship between the two. It's not like "press here and ...whoosh!"
    Some women can't take direct stimulation - too sensitive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Only because it (can) increase arousal and all the physiological changes that flow from that.There's no direct relationship between the two.
    i don't quite understand...that looks like a pretty direct relationship to me. If it's eliciting a psychological response that results in lubrication and expanding of the vagina, then it's one way of making the process less painful and more pleasurable. not the only way, but certainly a way.

    It's not like "press here and ...whoosh!"
    haha noooooo it is certainly not
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  10. #150
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringstheory View Post
    i don't quite understand...that looks like a pretty direct relationship to me. If it's eliciting a psychological response that results in lubrication and expanding of the vagina, then it's one way of making the process less painful and more pleasurable. not the only way, but certainly a way.
    Yes, but it looked like you were saying it was a function of the clitoris, when it's more of a ...side-effect. I'm pretty sure you could still get wet without one, is what I'm trying to say.

    You seemed to be suggesting that non-lubricated (i.e. non-aroused) penetration is an option. That would be a big from me. (Unless there's something medically wrong with the woman, in which case use synthetic lube,ffs)

    /not entirely off-topic

    10 percent of women in the United States have never climaxed.
    Seriously?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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