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  1. #131
    Ginkgo
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    Yeah... can't really argue with genital mutilation. lol.

  2. #132
    Senior Member Fan.of.Devin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Okay, explain what me seeing the exact statistics of ^ would prove for your case?

    Will it prove that globally, men have "as many prejudice disadvantages"?
    I thought we acknowledged that the "as many" part was fluff?
    I believe that they are equal in at least one way, but, I'm not really prepared to argue for that, self-admittedly.
    I cited an example where men are seriously disadvantaged, yet the focus both within the US and abroad is on women.
    I've seen plenty of stuff decrying violence against women, yet I've seen none specifically decrying violence against men, despite them being the primary recipients of it...
    What makes women so much more worthy of protection from violence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Why?
    Because of the principle behind naming a supposedly egalitarian movement after one gender, essentially implying the other gender doesn't have their own disadvantages, and maybe even that they are the aggressor...
    Carries certain connotations with it that I don't find very favorable.
    Call me out for being a stickler on semantics, I guess. : /

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I see....but, bolded, are you sure? Or are you fibbing? Because.....you then go on to say:

    So........what are your thoughts on liberal feminism?
    I've heard the term before, and I knew the gist, but I've never looked into it extensively.
    Skimming some information, I'd say, it about matches what I tend to believe...

    However, my favorite is easily this... :P
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  3. #133
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    The problem with arguments like this is that in our society, people's value does not come solely from their reproductive status. It's very interesting that a woman produces X number of ova in her lifetime and a man produces that many sperm in a week. What does that mean to any individual, though? Suppose a woman has decided not to have children. Why should her value still be tied to her reproductive status?

    And the same goes for men- why is a man's value tied to the number of sperm he produces or his upper-body strength, and not his other qualities as a human being? Suppose there's a couple, and between the two of them, the man is the more nurturing and easygoing one, so they decide she will be the breadwinner and he will stay home with the children? Why is he not valued higher because he's the one who is more instrumental in guiding the children on a day-to-day basis?
    Because unfortunately, we have a tendency to evolve culture faster than we evolve ourselves as humans, and a lot more thought is instinctual than we tend to admit these days. An admittedly more behaviorist position to take, but one that seems to fit the facts, IMO.

  4. #134
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Because unfortunately, we have a tendency to evolve culture faster than we evolve ourselves as humans, and a lot more thought is instinctual than we tend to admit these days. An admittedly more behaviorist position to take, but one that seems to fit the facts, IMO.
    But that cat is out of the bag. We're not going back to a purely behavioral model (e.g. cultures like those of our early hominid ancestors). What is the harm in being more evolved culturally than biologically? Can we not acknowledge that the instincts exist, but also apply the logic we've evolved to be capable of using to whether or not they should be heeded in modern society? Society works against a lot of our instincts- violence, for example. We don't just throw our hands up and say "Oh well, humans are primates and primates like to bash each other's skulls in. Must be okay!" So if there is an instinctive basis for the oppression of women, which I don't disagree there is (sexual dimorphism can be like that), why would our reaction to that be different from the instinctive basis for violence? Personally, I appreciate that I live in a society that doesn't accept acting thoughtlessly on our animal instincts.

    I imagine it's easier to be satisfied with the way things have always been when its your own gender that has always had the advantage.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  5. #135
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan.of.Townsend View Post
    I have a feeling I'm in way over my head here, so I'm just not going to pursue that point any further. I'm sorry if I offended you, but, I'm not at all sorry for making the comparison.
    Hopefully, once you study the matter a little more deeply, you will be.

    I'm not sure I've seen a more uninformed opinion on the differences between typical FGM vs routine male circumcision.

    (And actually, I'd like to see both disappear.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  6. #136
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    wow... I read the whole thread and I've got to say that some views on both sides of the issue are rather scary

    Ivy laid out my definition of feminism in the thread quite well... the notion that either gender should feel free to live a life to their likings free of gender role expectations- if a man wants to cry, let him cry, if a girl wants to learn woodworking help her learn- neither gender should be restricted by silly, age old expectations of what they "should" do as opposed to what they "can" do

    I took gender roles in modern society for my gender relations class because I've always been more interested in hearing both sides of the argument. I was kind of surprised by what I learned from the men in the class, and from my male friends afterwords based on class discussions. I learned that men feel restricted by their gender roles too, and that a lot of them would be happy to cry at movies or get their unibrows waxed without ridicule A lot of them were upset at the notion that maternity leave is much more acceptable than paternity leave as well, because they wished to be a part of their child's life just as much as the mother. The guys were pretty shocked when they heard girls talking about bosses discriminating with promotions thinking that a girl would be more likely to comply with the orders of a robber, and some of the men tried wearing women's dress shoes for a day and declared them to be the worst invention ever foisted upon womankind since the chastity belt

    Other than silly traditional gender roles getting in the way, the other object in the way of women in life is that pesky uterus... because of it we automatically fall into the "bringer of life" category, whether we want to or not :steam: It always irks me that in most cases birth control is a woman's responsibility that she must remember and pay for while the man gets to reap the benefits of sex without having to remember to take a pill at a certain time or pay for the damned things... and that men don't have to worry about the horrors of getting knocked up and what it does to your body and social life! You see problems with things of that sort going wrong a lot more in poorer neighborhoods and I think that even just EDUCATING women on their bodies, birth control and the fact that having his baby doesn't make him love you... and subsidizing birth control as well... would do a LOT for evening out gender relations
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainbows View Post
    She's a very outspoken feminist.

    She wrote this book, "The Beautiful Boy" Later Changed to just "The Boy"



    The Beautiful Boy[1] is a book, ISBN 0-8478-2586-8, by Germaine Greer, published in 2003. Its avowed intention was "to advance women's reclamation of their capacity for and right to visual pleasure". It is a study of the youthful male face and form, from antiquity to the present day, from paintings and drawings to statuary and photographs.

    The book contains some 200 pictures of boys through the ages, and is a history of boys in art. Pictures and discussions range from Cupid to Elvis, Boy George, Kurt Cobain, and Jim Morrison.

    The book generated some controversy because "society is not accustomed to seeing beauty in young males", Greer claims. Greer has described the book as "full of pictures of 'ravishing' pre-adult boys with hairless chests, wide-apart legs and slim waists". She goes on to say that, "I know that the only people who are supposed to like looking at pictures of boys are a subgroup of gay men," she wrote in London's Daily Telegraph. "Well, I'd like to reclaim for women the right to appreciate the short-lived beauty of boys, real boys, not simpering 30-year-olds with shaved chests."She was criticized for these comments with some writers labeling her a paedophile.
    Source : The Beautiful Boy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    That is creepy.

  8. #138
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I imagine it's easier to be satisfied with the way things have always been when its your own gender that has always had the advantage.
    Oh snap!

  9. #139
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan.of.Townsend View Post
    Though I don't mean to downplay how abhorrent I find the concept of it's forced removal, I'm fairly sure the clitoris is not mandatory to female orgasm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    For many (most?) women, yes, the clitoris IS mandatory for orgasm. I can't even believe I have to say that. But clitoridectomy is only one kind of female circumcision, and inability to reach orgasm is only one of the many likely outcomes.
    Ivy's right. Nearly three-quarters of women don't orgasm through sexual intercourse alone. We usually need clitoral stimulation to achieve it.

    Quick link

    Sorry I'm a little late here, but I wanted to give a stat to debunk a very common misconception about female orgasms.

  10. #140
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    If you damage the male's ability to orgasm, you damage his ability to reproduce.

    But females get pregnant whether they orgasm or not.
    The vagina is the place where the reproduction function happens.

    The clitoris only has one function, and it is not reproduction. The clitoris only exists to provide sexual pleasure. Unlike the penis, where the two functions are combined in one organ.

    Expecting most women to climax without clitoral stimulation is like expecting a man to come when you rub his balls. It might feel good, but it won't make you orgasm. In some cases perhaps etc etc yeah, maybe there's a guy who can come that way. But for most of them, that's not going to work. It's the same thing with ignoring or cutting off(!) the woman's clitoris. The only purpose of removing the clitoris is removing sexual pleasure. It's remotely possible she might still orgasm but mostly not -- and if she does, it's a miracle.

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