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  1. #121
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan.of.Townsend View Post
    The UN is a wholly laughable organization, I'm not really interested in discussing anything to do with it.

    In third world countries, and even in the cultures of many so-called industrialized countries, violence, abuse, and mistreatment abound for all parties.
    EVERYONE is treated poorly; the "international community" may simply happen to focus on women's rights for whatever reason.
    The UN calls female genitile mutilation in the developing world a crime against humanity, meanwhile, circumcision is among the most common surgical procedures in the Western world... Somehow that causes cognitive dissonance for me.
    So, if you have to fall back on the credentials of the UN to support your position, I suggest you have some thinking to do. =P

    There is certainly a positive correlation between the general shittyness of a locale and the treatment of women therein. But, I remain unconvinced of any need to focus on women more than men.
    In the United States, violent crime is biased to male victims by leaps and bounds; I would expect this trend is exaggerated in the undeveloped world, if anything, rather than reversed... Isn't that of concern?
    Where's the UN resolution on male rights, might I ask?
    (I can get the exact statistic for the above, if you care.)
    Thanks for missing the obvious point of why I brought in the UN in the first place.

    This is not about the merits of UN, it is about a quick and easy way to give you an overview of data on gender disparities at the international level.

    Unless you can name another international organization that has access to such large-scale data, as, say, when it comes to public health - the World Health Organization (UN)? Please, I'd love some names....

    Without data, without evidence, everything is subjective.

    So....

    Whether you agree with the UN and its principles or not, it has nothing to do with still giving merit to the evidence [the data] that has been collected, at a relatively global scale, to influence said policies and proposals for policies.

    With you discrediting the UN, because you don't agree with some of its stance, you have basically only made a commentary on where you stand on its proposals and policies.

    With no commentary on the implications of the findings from large-scale data which gave rise to such proposals in the first place - which was my aim with those links.

    I have my own issues with some of the many doctrines that fly the flag of feminism, but, I stand by my statement that the label is important, for separate reasons.
    If somebody called themselves a "machoist" or "masculinist" or what have you, would you think of them much the same as you would a feminist?
    Probably not...
    What connotations would it bring to mind?
    So your main issue with feminism is the label, not what its different branches of thoughts are?

    Secondly, feminism is not one cohesive school of thought. I have a feeling you don't know what feminism wholly entails.

  2. #122
    Senior Member Fan.of.Devin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Thanks for missing the obvious point of why I brought in the UN in the first place.

    This is not about the merits of UN, it is about a quick and easy way to give you an overview of data on gender disparities at the international level.

    Unless you can name another international organization that has access to such large-scale data, as, say, the World Health Organization (UN)? Please, I'd love some names....

    Without data, without evidence, everything is subjective.

    So....

    Whether you agree with the UN and its principles or not, it has nothing to do with still giving merit to the evidence [the data] that has been collected, at a relatively global scale, to influence said policies and proposals for policies.

    With you discrediting the UN, because you don't agree with some of its stance, you have basically only made a commentary on where you stand on its proposals and policies.

    With no commentary on the implications of the findings from large-scale data which gave rise to such proposals in the first place - which was my aim with those links.
    How about the statistic I just mentioned?
    Did you decide to ignore it, or come to the conclusion that it is contextually irrelevant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    So your main issue with feminism is the label, not what its different branches of thoughts are?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Secondly, feminism is not one cohesive school of thought. I have a feeling you don't know what feminism wholly entails.
    I'm well aware of the breadth and depth of what it entails; many doctrines and ideals which are almost completely contradictory, interestingly enough.

    I have no problem with the stuff that advocates egalitarianism.
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  3. #123
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan.of.Townsend View Post
    Though I don't mean to downplay how abhorrent I find the concept of it's forced removal, I'm fairly sure the clitoris is not mandatory to female orgasm.

    They are both irrefutably damaging at some level, but neither cause sexual function to cease entirely.
    If you have a source that states the contrary, feel free to educate me.

    What makes them so incomparable? The sanitation and skill behind the procedure?
    If they had access to sterile hospital rooms, I'm sure they would avail to them...
    For many (most?) women, yes, the clitoris IS mandatory for orgasm. I can't even believe I have to say that. But clitoridectomy is only one kind of female circumcision, and inability to reach orgasm is only one of the many likely outcomes.


    Quote Originally Posted by World Health Organization
    Female genital mutilation (FGM) includes procedures that intentionally alter or injure female genital organs for non-medical reasons.
    The procedure has no health benefits for girls and women.
    Procedures can cause severe bleeding and problems urinating, and later, potential childbirth complications and newborn deaths.


    Female genital mutilation is classified into four major types.

    Clitoridectomy: partial or total removal of the clitoris (a small, sensitive and erectile part of the female genitals) and, in very rare cases, only the prepuce (the fold of skin surrounding the clitoris).
    Excision: partial or total removal of the clitoris and the labia minora, with or without excision of the labia majora (the labia are "the lips" that surround the vagina).
    Infibulation: narrowing of the vaginal opening through the creation of a covering seal. The seal is formed by cutting and repositioning the inner, or outer, labia, with or without removal of the clitoris.
    Other: all other harmful procedures to the female genitalia for non-medical purposes, e.g. pricking, piercing, incising, scraping and cauterizing the genital area.


    Long-term consequences can include:

    recurrent bladder and urinary tract infections;
    cysts;
    infertility;
    an increased risk of childbirth complications and newborn deaths;
    the need for later surgeries. For example, the FGM procedure that seals or narrows a vaginal opening (type 3 above) needs to be cut open later to allow for sexual intercourse and childbirth. Sometimes it is stitched again several times, including after childbirth, hence the woman goes through repeated opening and closing procedures, further increasing and repeated both immediate and long-term risks.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
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  4. #124
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    So lemme get this straight. Some people are like "Omg feminism lost it's meaning long ago and now it's just a bunch of whiny princesses that want special treatment with more pay because they hate my burrito" and some people are like "Feminism is stupid because trying to be equal is stupid because equality in something outside of math is stupid" and some people are like "Feminism is a coin phrase for anyone that wants to actively change the way men and women think about each other and treat each other to something where we can focus on things outside of the gender."

    I read through like. 8 pages of this. and then skimmed the rest.

    Here's how I feel about the issue: The word feminism has been turned into something a bit dirty and derogatory. I think this is, in part, because of women who have abused its meaning and men who have taken that abuse and ran with it to support pre-existing notions.

    It sounds like people in the third group are trying to say, "All we want is for people to be able to live their lives how they want to live them, based on what they excel at, without restraint or intimidation and pressure to do anything other than what makes them happy from others." I don't know about being equal in all matters and aspects of life.. but trying to achieve this, to me, would probably suffice. If anyone currently feels that this is already the case.. I invite you to join the military and one single, teeny tiny example.

    I don't know if "equality" is the right word to use, because it does sound sorta like men already have some sort of worth that women lack, at least mentally, that we're trying to catch up to.. but I'm not looking through a whole damn dictionary of words to coin a new, more politically correct, phrase.

    I'm not a fan of arguing over semantics, and what words really mean or w/e. It takes away from the debate. I know what some women do under the guise of a "feminist" that's not truly the intentions of the movement. I know that 2 does not equal 3.
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  5. #125
    Senior Member Fan.of.Devin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    For many (most?) women, yes, the clitoris IS mandatory for orgasm. I can't even believe I have to say that. But clitoridectomy is only one kind of female circumcision, and inability to reach orgasm is only one of the many likely outcomes.
    I was aware of that removal of the labia minora/majora was common, but I've never heard of the specifics of the others.
    I assumed removal of the clitoris was the most damaging (evidently correct?), so I cited that as the extreme.

    I remember having this debate before, and coming to the conclusion that while it was extremely damaging (easily more so than circumcision in most cases), that is didn't make orgasm impossible.
    Again, cite something to the contrary, I was never able to find anything.
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  6. #126
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan.of.Townsend View Post
    How about the statistic I just mentioned?
    Did you decide to ignore it, or come to the conclusion that it is contextually irrelevant?

    What? This? V

    Quote Originally Posted by Fan.of.Townsend View Post
    In the United States, violent crime is biased to male victims by leaps and bounds; I would expect this trend is exaggerated in the undeveloped world, if anything, rather than reversed... Isn't that of concern?
    Where's the UN resolution on male rights, might I ask?
    (I can get the exact statistic for the above, if you care.)
    Okay, explain what me seeing the exact statistics of ^ would prove for your case?

    Will it prove that globally, men have "as many prejudice disadvantages"?

    Connect the dots for me, otherwise, yes, it's an irrelevant statistics to my main line of argument with you (scale/gender imbalance/globally speaking - and as Ivy also mentions as a point later on, historically, as well).

    Yes.
    Why?

    I'm well aware of the breadth and depth of what it entails; many doctrines and ideals which are almost completely contradictory, interestingly enough.
    I see....but, bolded, are you sure? Or are you fibbing? Because.....you then go on to say:

    I have no problem with the stuff that advocates egalitarianism.
    So........what are your thoughts on liberal feminism?

  7. #127
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I wasn't going to mention how stupid I found the "I hate the word feminism itself" argument to be. But I will now since I have this to reply to as well below.

    It's called feminism because, originally, it's women trying to strive for it. The principle umbrellas men as well, but women founded it, so why not call it whatever the eff they wanna call it.. I don't get mad when a store called "COMICS!!" doesn't mention right there in the name that they also sell board games and magic cards as well as the initially advertised item. The rest of that information is assumed via experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fan.of.Townsend View Post
    Though I don't mean to downplay how abhorrent I find the concept of it's forced removal, I'm fairly sure the clitoris is not mandatory to female orgasm.

    They are both irrefutably damaging at some level, but neither cause sexual function to cease entirely.
    If you have a source that states the contrary, feel free to educate me.

    What makes them so incomparable? The sanitation and skill behind the procedure?
    If they had access to sterile hospital rooms, I'm sure they would avail to them...
    The clitoris is mandatory for female orgasm in almost all cases. It's like saying the tip of your penis is not mandatory for male orgasm. If you had half of your penis removed and a mere stump was left, I doubt you'd experience sex the same way.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

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    prplchknz: i don't like it

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  8. #128
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan.of.Townsend
    No, I don't think I'll be fulfilling your completely arbitrary demand. My claim was that circumcised men go on to lead completely normal sex lives- and by extrapolation that the same isn't true of women who have been circumcised. Cutting off a woman's clitoris and labia, and/or sewing her vagina shut certainly does impede her ability to have a completely normal sex life.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  9. #129
    Senior Member Fan.of.Devin's Avatar
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    Alright... I don't recall claiming that circumcision and FGM we're exactly equal in their effects (believe I stated the contrary), but that they are analogous.
    Removal of or damage to an erogenous zone without the person's consent, or in the case of children, even their knowledge.
    Apparently I'm being taken as having claimed the former.

    I have a feeling I'm in way over my head here, so I'm just not going to pursue that point any further.
    I'm sorry if I offended you, but, I'm not at all sorry for making the comparison.
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  10. #130
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    Some of the doctrines of feminism are contradictory. For instance, anti-porn feminism and pro-sex feminism are at odds with each other because they are taking different angles to get at the same goal (To provide equal rights for women). The women's suffrage movement was entirely necessary, and similar movements will probably need to be executed in other places of the world. I'm not sure about all of the statistics.

    However, now in days, particularly in the western world, feminism has more to do with social identity politics. Feminists might ask themselves if women have fair representation in science, or politics, religion, or whatever. Eventually, it looks slightly goofy; but I think the primary concern is economics.

    It's difficult to say which camp is worse off - men or women, simply because men are often subjugated to things like war, and many times more likely to be murdered. Of course, they are also more likely to be murderers. I think onemoretime addressed this when he/she said that women are generally protected because they are seen as equivalent to the livelihood of the family, and the family is equivalent to the livelihood of society.

    My friend once said that women are trained to communicate about their problems more, while men are more stoic and less complaining. If this is true, then wouldn't mothers train their sons to be less patriarchal and oppressive?

    I'm basically a humanist, so I support feminism as long as it's under the categorization of egalitarianism. However, when the arguments of feminists devolve into something that's just as oppressive as the patriarchy they're fighting against, I can't say I agree.

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