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Thread: Money and Debt

  1. #21
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    1) Everything in the Bible is relevant.
    2) Malachi 3:8-10 has been fulfilled. Despite Israel's perpetual rebelliousness God has already "throw[n] open the floodgates of heaven and pour[ed] out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it" in that he gave Christ to the Church. There is no greater blessing and treasure than Christ himself.
    3) In light of this we read Corinthians as people that are already blessed and rich. People that cannot become destitute and thus can only gain from cheerfully and generously giving of what we have.
    Your interpretation is that it has been fulfilled. Others have different interpretations. No one can objectively prove their interpretation to be correct.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #22
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Your interpretation is that it has been fulfilled. Others have different interpretations.
    Ok, I shouldn't have used "we" in that post.

    Still it's obvious that what the Bible says is based on interpretation.

    No one can objectively prove their interpretation to be correct.
    I think that's true in this case merely because we're discussing the symbolic meaning of a prophetic promise.

    In other parts of the bible you can make a case for objective interpretations. I don't think anyone is going to debate what "Jesus wept" means.
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  3. #23
    nevermore lane777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Paul seemed to think so. He spent a good amount of time writing about it.

    The New Testament is constantly making reference to the old testament. Without understanding the old testament you have no frame of reference. You're like a child that wonders into the middle of a movie and wants to know...


    Where in the NT does he state that circumcision is still relevant?
    To die would be an awfully big adventure - Peter Pan

    INFJ ~ 4w5 sp/sx ~ RLOAI ~ Inclusion e/w=1/0 (Melancholy Compulsive) Control: e/w=0/6 (Supine) Affection: e/w=4/0 (Phlegmatic Melancholy)

  4. #24
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lane777 View Post


    Where in the NT does he state that circumcision is still relevant?
    It's a relevant subject of discussion but not necessarily a relevant practice is what he meant, I believe.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #25
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    It's a relevant subject of discussion but not necessarily a relevant practice is what he meant, I believe.
    Pretty much.

    But, often times a correct understanding of OT practices is essential to practices that are commanded in the NT. In this instance I believe a correct understanding of circumcision is essential to the administration of baptism or more particularly infant baptism.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  6. #26
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Pretty much.

    But, often times a correct understanding of OT practices is essential to practices that are commanded in the NT. In this instance I believe a correct understanding of circumcision is essential to the administration of baptism or more particularly infant baptism.
    Like an initiation into the community of faith?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #27
    nevermore lane777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    It's a relevant subject of discussion but not necessarily a relevant practice is what he meant, I believe.
    The fact that's it's a relevant subject of discussion, has nothing to do with our discussion.

    I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but the first sentence in my first post, makes it abundantly clear that I'm referring to practices:

    Tithing was part of the Mosaic Law, which followers are not required to follow since Christ's death, so the Malachi verse is not relevant today.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Pretty much.

    But, often times a correct understanding of OT practices is essential to practices that are commanded in the NT. In this instance I believe a correct understanding of circumcision is essential to the administration of baptism or more particularly infant baptism.
    I was arguing a completely different point entirely.
    To die would be an awfully big adventure - Peter Pan

    INFJ ~ 4w5 sp/sx ~ RLOAI ~ Inclusion e/w=1/0 (Melancholy Compulsive) Control: e/w=0/6 (Supine) Affection: e/w=4/0 (Phlegmatic Melancholy)

  8. #28
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lane777 View Post
    The fact that's it's a relevant subject of discussion, has nothing to do with our discussion.

    I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but the first sentence in my first post, makes it abundantly clear that I'm referring to practices:





    I was arguing a completely different point entirely.
    Actually, I've heard some pretty good arguments that it does have some relevance to followers of the New Testament. Normally, what we follow from the Old Testament as believers in Christ is the moral law while we aren't bound by ceremonial law. Malachi could be considered either and there are those that argue that since Abraham offered tithes to Melchizedek at a time before the Mosaic Law was given, that it could indeed apply to Christians.

    I'm sorry I didn't read your first sentence thoroughly. I didn't realize we were doing a serious debate. I thought we were exchanging ideas.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #29
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Like an initiation into the community of faith?
    Yeah. I would probably say covenant community, but community of faith caries a similar meaning.


    Quote Originally Posted by lane777
    The fact that's it's a relevant subject of discussion, has nothing to do with our discussion.

    I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but the first sentence in my first post, makes it abundantly clear that I'm referring to practices:
    That's fine. But, I still think for the point your trying to get across relevant is a very poor choice of words.

    You must understand that I'm picky about this because it ticks me off that for the last hundred years most of the protestant church has been studying the bible in a way that totally ignores the Old Testament. Thus most protestants in america think the OT is not relevant to them.

    Relevant means that something is closely related to or appropriate to the matter at hand. This thread is about the biblical use of money. The verse in Malachi speaks directly to how the israelites were to spend their money. Regardless of whether modern Christians are commanded to tithe or not there are still principles in Malachi that are relevant.

    You not only dismissed the practice of tithing, but the entire set of verses in Malachi from the conversation.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  10. #30
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Actually, I've heard some pretty good arguments that it does have some relevance to followers of the New Testament. Normally, what we follow from the Old Testament as believers in Christ is the moral law while we aren't bound by ceremonial law. Malachi could be considered either and there are those that argue that since Abraham offered tithes to Melchizedek at a time before the Mosaic Law was given, that it could indeed apply to Christians.
    OK after getting all what-not over hermeneutics I have to confess that I'm biased against a strict view of tithing because I believe those that I've known that have taught the strict view had ulterior motives. [cough]Jerry Falwell[/cough]
    Last edited by Beorn; 08-07-2010 at 07:07 PM.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

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