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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    Hoarding resources is an ancient habit (or strategy, whatever), you probably won't ever eliminate the urge without such adamant resistance and dissonance. I could only see it ending in disaster. If people lose the need all by themselves, then I would see it as valid
    I don't know why some people see hoarding resources as innate, though, because of the many people who naturally disdain doing so. One of my employers - an 80 year old Argentinian man who immigrated to the U.S. and enjoyed success in business - says "we're born naked, we die naked - that's why I don't believe in ownership - who can own anything when we all arrive and leave with nothing." My entire family has a sense of communal living on a small scale, as do MANY people I've encountered. I'm not for authoritarianism, either...I'm more of a libertarian socialist. I do not believe that sharing resources equals lack of freedom. There are so many other ways to be free.

    Overpopulation may or may not even be a reality. Every time humans hit a wall, we just create a new singularity. Run out of animals to hunt? Try farming, population increases exponentially. Human labor not enough? Use machines, populations increase exponentially.
    Slowing the human birth rate is possible, because it's now occuring in most - if not all - developed countries.

  2. #52
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    wow, marm, why don't you go join a fucking commune then? I don't want to share things that I have to work hard to get..... fucking idealists....
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  3. #53
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post

    Slowing the human birth rate is possible, because it's now occuring in most - if not all - developed countries.
    Developed countries represent only a tiny fraction of the human animal. Just because a few, relatively small pockets are slowing (but still growing) does not mean that the vast majority of less-developed nations will not enjoy steady growth for the foreseeable future.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
    wow, marm, why don't you go join a fucking commune then? I don't want to share things that I have to work hard to get..... fucking idealists....
    It's funny that you say that since I spent a little over two months living in hostels and now live in a large house in the Valley with many roommates where we share many things.

    The idea behind a commune is that everyone works and/or contributes something meaningful, unless they are too young, old, sick, or weak to do so. Seeing as that at some point in our lives all of us are young, sick, and weak at some point, and many of us become old, it makes sense to have a symbiotic relationship with a group. You could even look at it as somewhat tribal, and therefore completely natural.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Every human behavior would have to be completely natural, as I have yet to observe anything existing outside of nature.

  6. #56
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    lol....wtf is wrong with you people...... other than normal things, like unusual delusions?
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by cloud View Post
    Is it possible?

    What sort of innovation would be necessary to eliminate poverty?
    Quote Originally Posted by cloud View Post
    end of homelessless.
    end of starvation.
    Perhaps good health care and well fed.
    Enough clean food and water.

    thank you for the recommendation Haight. I have that book myself.
    But I want to look at it at a scientific perspective, rather than economic solutions. I believe that science and technology can help us put an end to poverty.
    I don't think that poverty is eliminated at first world countries.
    I'll play.

    This is something I used to dream about A LOT as a kid...inventing something that would make poverty obsolete.

    My conclusion as a kid was that Star Trek like energy-to-matter "synthesizers" that could effectively make anything, including food, is the answer. IOW, removing the "limited resources" aspect of economics.

    Molecular assemblers, and nano-fabricators seem to be steps in the right direction. That needs to be combined with a way to convert energy (namely solar energy) into ordered matter.

    It all seems far-fetched at the moment, however.

    Still, the essence of the matter is to remove the "limited resources" aspect of things. If you can find a way to make any resource essentially limitless (like reliable, highly available, renewable energy...say, in the form or a tiny solar cell that can store incredible amounts of energy) you are a step closer to eliminating poverty.

    Think about the difference between when information was available to only a few and now, when the majority of it is available for anyone with internet access. Even the information for an MIT education (though certainly not the actual experience of going there) is available for free now.

    This has to be the situation both for energy and for manufacturing capability, as well.

    Like I said, as a kid, I used to dream about a world like this...A LOT. I kept that dream with me even through high-school...even wrote a college entrance essay about that dream.

    Now, I'm a bit jaded. People play politics over the idea of renewable energy. It is about so much more than global warming.

    It is my belief that the quest for "essentially limitless energy" should be the next big thing. Like the space-race was in the 60s and 70s and the Human Genome Project was in the 90s.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  8. #58
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    I would guess that there are a few people here who are really walking the socialist walk as well as talking the communal talk when it comes to deliberately choosing a lack of personal belongings as a lifestyle, and sharing as a matter of course. To these folks, I salute you.

    Others, particularly those who blame the wealthy for their own inability to get ahead, I see as hypocritical... they're not critiquing the materialism of the wealthy so much as they're pissed off that someone is better at playing the "possessions" game than they themselves are... and if the roles were reversed, they'd gladly let those dirty bastards eat cake.

    One thing: Wealth is not a zero sum game, not yet at least. We still have untapped natural resources and a considerable amount of waste worldwide... if we really wanted yet more stuff, we have the wherewithal to get it.

    With regard to my earlier comment to the effect that "Money always returns to its rightful owners," I stand by it. The rich are rich for reasons, and the poor are poor for reasons, and usually luck isn't a significant factor. However, many people have misjudged my point in making such a statement. I didn't mean to essentially say "Fvck the poor," as one of my high school teachers famously said to me. Rather, I meant to make the point that the cure to poverty (if there is one) lies not in redistribution of wealth, but in education.

    Give a person the skills and the awareness to get ahead, and he or she will do so. Enabling people to redistribute wealth for themselves is much more effective in the long term than doing it for them, and does much less violence to individual liberty.

    Which is my personal kind of crack, in case you didn't know... probably a result of reading too much sci-fi as a kid.

  9. #59
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I would guess that there are a few people here who are really walking the socialist walk as well as talking the communal talk when it comes to deliberately choosing a lack of personal belongings as a lifestyle, and sharing as a matter of course. To these folks, I salute you.
    This is interesting to me, what do you mean by walking the socialist walk? Why would you salute something you clearly dont agree with? Consistency? Or is it saluting the impossible or the dreamer?

    There are no doubt socialists and anti-socialists who consider socialism synonymous with "lack of personal belonings" but I believe that's highly inaccurate and often prejudiced and prejorative.

    Socialism's emergence was often characterised, at least in the UK where writers and historians have described it as more methodist than marxist, by an attempt by people to conserve or apply the norms and values of an earlier time in the changed conditions of industrialism and urbanism.

    Although if you consider the conservative reaction to industrialism and urbanism like Cobbett, Southy, Coleridge etc. it puts socialists in the shade to be honest, much, much more vociferous and ferocious, its lost on a lot of contemporary conservatives because contemporary conservatism doesnt go much beyond defending capitalism or, more accurately, defending capitalists.

    When confronted by apparent contradictions like this US conservatives like Nisbet have had to qualify recountings of the reaction by suggesting it came about because conservatives considered it a harbringer of socialism.

    Properly understood Marx's end result was individual liberty, its clearer in the more literary exposition of the idea by Oscar Wilde in The Soul of Man Under Socialism though. A lot of time was given over by socialists to valourising penury, poverty, austerity, hardship in the process of seeking to challenge a lot of characterisations of working people as beasts or a kind of loathsome mass but those states of being are not and shouldnt be considered the goal of socialism, that's gross distortion.

    The aims of socialism where a greater democracy, a greater prosperity shared by all and a classless society (class in a prejorative sense of crush and exclusive stratification, not manners or conduct), none of that requires austerity or being divested of personal belongings and neither does being divested of personal belongings advance any of those goals.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    With regard to my earlier comment to the effect that "Money always returns to its rightful owners," I stand by it. The rich are rich for reasons, and the poor are poor for reasons, and usually luck isn't a significant factor. However, many people have misjudged my point in making such a statement. I didn't mean to essentially say "Fvck the poor," as one of my high school teachers famously said to me. Rather, I meant to make the point that the cure to poverty (if there is one) lies not in redistribution of wealth, but in education.
    There's implicit and explicit value judgements about dessert and virtue in the statement that money returns to its owners or that there is some naturalistic explanation for the rich being rich or the poor being poor. I couldnt consider it valid at all. I dont think luck has anything to do with it either.

    I wouldnt see it as "fuck the poor" necessarily either, although I do think that most of the defenders of the rich do feel that way, some of them feel more of a "fuck everyone else" to be honest though, it could be as easily "Praise be to the rich". Infact to me it appears that way.

    I dont believe that education will remedy poverty, by and large I see that as being closely allied to the habit of lecturing the poor on their personal morality and habits, its very possible to live the life of a saint and remain poor. Losing as a consumer or producer frequently has got dick all to do with personal or cultural factors but structural factors like the economy.

    It doesnt mean that personal and cultural factors arent important or wouldnt be important for other reasons (for instance whatever your wealth alcoholism or addiction suck ass) but in an interdependent society, mixed economy, wherein there's more employees than the independent yoeman farmers of capitalist/libertarian/conservative lore they're neglible.

    There's difficulties in the characterisation of poverty too, what is it? I think poverty doesnt exist in most orderly, developed societies with mixed economies and welfare states, relative deprivation persists and its a different thing altogether but it doesnt do to confuse the two things.

    To be honest I reckon that there could be a time in which historians consider the valorisation or villification of individuals on the grounds of wealth status to be as absurd as contemporaries now may consider the blood lines of feudalism or caste systems.

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