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  1. #41
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I have wondered if there could be a future in non-profit (or not-for-profit) manufacturing... it would look like the old coal-mining operations where there were company towns, company doctors, company stores, and so forth, except it wouldn't be exploitative. The manufacturing operation would exist solely to fund the lives of the workers. You could run it as a 501c3 organization, and distribute any revenue after expenses to the employees.

    This would ensure a poverty-free existence for the company employees and their families... poverty-free in the sense that all involved would have food, shelter, clothing, and medical care at a reasonable standard of living. The relative abundance of pocket money would still be based on the employee's personal choices.

    The management structure of the organization would have to be staffed by salaried management, organization members just like anyone else, and answerable to a board of trustees (preferably also members, if possible).

    It would be like a free-market commune, sustained by commerce but without any shareholders other than the employees themselves.
    They call them kibbutzes and they have been functioning in just this way since the late 40's - it is a shame that the political upheaval of the area has made the successes of this form of socialism all but invisible.
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
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    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
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  2. #42
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Although I strongly believe that simple redistribution of assets will never get the job done, and here's why: There is an old saying on Wall Street that goes "Money always returns to its rightful owners." Which means that if Peter is rich and Paul is poor, and you take a big wad of Peter's cash and give it to Paul, inevitably after a certain span of time Peter would be rich again and Paul would be poor again.
    They would say that, wouldn't they? I think the context of stock market speculation alone is far too narrow in understanding the causes of individual poverty in any case, as most people are not stock market speculators. Though since stock market activity has such a powerful effect on the economy they are of huge importance in determining regional, national, and intenational poverty.

    The reason for this is because Peter is not rich by chance and neither is Paul poor by chance; their relative wealth is determined by their habits and practices with regard to their resources. Peter will remain rich because he continues to do the things that made him rich. Paul will remain poor because he continues to do the things that made him poor.

    The only way to address this phenomenon is to somehow remove or negate the effects of Paul's choices.
    It's only about choice for the small minority of the world's population that actually has one in the first place. The most substantive choice possessed by most people in the world today is that between poverty and crime, and luckily for society in general, and those at the top in particular, they overwhelmingly choose poverty.

    I think you've been seduced by the increasingly delusive and irrelevant ideal of the American Dream though.
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  3. #43
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    no, and it's retarded to even think it's possible. no offense.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    You think there's only one way to end poverty? I never said that.

    Although I strongly believe that simple redistribution of assets will never get the job done, and here's why: There is an old saying on Wall Street that goes "Money always returns to its rightful owners." Which means that if Peter is rich and Paul is poor, and you take a big wad of Peter's cash and give it to Paul, inevitably after a certain span of time Peter would be rich again and Paul would be poor again.

    The reason for this is because Peter is not rich by chance and neither is Paul poor by chance; their relative wealth is determined by their habits and practices with regard to their resources. Peter will remain rich because he continues to do the things that made him rich. Paul will remain poor because he continues to do the things that made him poor.

    The only way to address this phenomenon is to somehow remove or negate the effects of Paul's choices.
    That's bullshit to the highest order, I'm sorry but it is. Under all of that underlies the assumption that everyone had the same chance of getting rich to begin with. Odds are, plenty of people that work on Wall Street do so because of luck outside of their control, and plenty of people not there but wish to be there simply got unlucky with factors outside their control.

    Ever read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell? While it's a garbage book because he offers no solutions as to how to put more people in control of their own fate, he does a good job in stating the obvious in how so much of success is determined by factors that said successful people had absolutely no control over, and just happened to have that right mix.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  5. #45
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    This is rather simplistic isn't it??? Are you saying that in countries where obesity exists there are no people starving or malnourished? ...or that if obesity exists as a problem then all have enough to prosper?

    Squalor occurs most frequently when people in poverty do not have resources and feel helpless to do anything about it.

    Is prosperity the opposite of poverty? Are we prepared to suffer less greed and spend less on things like ringtones and bling for our phones or name label goods? Would this in fact cause more poverty in those countries where a subsistence wage is paid for producing the wants (as opposed to needs) of we greedy westerners?

    I know in Australia poverty, relative to the grossly distended stomachs of the starving in 3rd world countries, could be said not to exist and I suspect likewise in any first world nation.

    I think tho that there needs to be a definition of poverty before it can be addressed, and the steps we need to take to eliminate it as the OP said.

    This question necessitates more questions before we can even begin to look at answers. The short and trite answers just don't cut it!
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  6. #46
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Poverty could be ended if everyone, everywhere led a life like that at a boarding school... the entire day planned, meals served at the dining halls at prescribed times, limited free time and lights out at 10 PM. There'd be no poverty because there'd be no need for the average person to have money, beyond a small amount for a snack or a soda.

    Come to think of it, this is a lot like how prisons operate.
    yeah, but not everyone would be willing to do that. which is why poverty will never be eradicated, because even if their are solutions, some idiot will rebel.

  7. #47
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    thats not the only solution to poverty. tbh. the only way you're going to end poverty is to cap how much an individual can make in a lifetime. like, say 200,000. even a poor family will make that in a lifetime. once you get to that point, you are murdered or sent to operate/function/exist in the moon or asteroid mines.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  8. #48
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    yeah, but not everyone would be willing to do that. which is why poverty will never be eradicated, because even if their are solutions, some idiot will rebel.
    An idiot, or a genius. But you're right, someone would ruin it. If it falls to ruin, it wasn't very sound to begin with, although I could only begin to imagine how tragic it would be, to be there to see it fall apart.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloud View Post
    Is it possible?

    What sort of innovation would be necessary to eliminate poverty?
    1) Stop certain people from hoarding resources that they don't even need or use.

    2) Eliminate overpopulation.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Hoarding resources is an ancient habit (or strategy, whatever), you probably won't ever eliminate the urge without such adamant resistance and dissonance. I could only see it ending in disaster. If people lose the need all by themselves, then I would see it as valid

    Overpopulation may or may not even be a reality. Every time humans hit a wall, we just create a new singularity. Run out of animals to hunt? Try farming, population increases exponentially. Human labor not enough? Use machines, populations increase exponentially.

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