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  1. #11
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I reckon it doesnt exist in the developed world, if your country suffers from obescity instead of starvation then you've eradicated poverty, now just because poverty has gone doesnt mean that there's no squalor.
    This is rather simplistic isn't it??? Are you saying that in countries where obesity exists there are no people starving or malnourished? ...or that if obesity exists as a problem then all have enough to prosper?

    Squalor occurs most frequently when people in poverty do not have resources and feel helpless to do anything about it.

    Is prosperity the opposite of poverty? Are we prepared to suffer less greed and spend less on things like ringtones and bling for our phones or name label goods? Would this in fact cause more poverty in those countries where a subsistence wage is paid for producing the wants (as opposed to needs) of we greedy westerners?

    I know in Australia poverty, relative to the grossly distended stomachs of the starving in 3rd world countries, could be said not to exist and I suspect likewise in any first world nation.

    I think tho that there needs to be a definition of poverty before it can be addressed, and the steps we need to take to eliminate it as the OP said.

    This question necessitates more questions before we can even begin to look at answers. The short and trite answers just don't cut it!
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  2. #12
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    baseball bats.

    to smack the shit out of idiots who think that sports idols and actors should make several millions.

    i'm leaning in favor of a cap on income. the problem is that no one every uses that much, it just ends up being hoarded.

    except lotto winners, lol.

  3. #13
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloud View Post
    Is it possible?

    What sort of innovation would be necessary to eliminate poverty?
    There's a very good book that has the same title as this thread.

    I suggest that you read it.
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

  4. #14
    Senior Member eagleseven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    It is man-made. There is no such thing in nature. There is feast and there is famine. Populations expand until they use up all the available resources, then they contract. That's the natural cycle. If you artificially manipulate resources, you must also artificially manipulate population size, because resources will always be finite.

    Inequality and poverty are different problems. The gap between rich and poor has little to do with net available resources and everything to do with the innate the drive to compete. Technology can't solve that. Perfect socialism could, but it doesn't exist. It doesn't exist because it is incompatible with human nature.
    This.

    All living things, save humans, are in poverty because they cannot, by definition, reliably satisfy what we humans call basic needs, such as healthcare, education, clean food and drink, and shelter.

    Given poverty is the natural state of living, what allows man to overcome this natural state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The innovation occurred in 1776 when Adam Smith published his, "Wealth of Nations".

    Adam showed us that private greed led to public prosperity.
    Rather than fight against our biological nature, as Socialism does, Capitalism utilizes our biological desires for the greater good...hence why it has been the most successful system at pulling populations out of mass poverty.

    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    Are we prepared to suffer less greed and spend less on things like ringtones and bling for our phones or name label goods? Would this in fact cause more poverty in those countries where a subsistence wage is paid for producing the wants (as opposed to needs) of we greedy westerners?
    Yes, it would cause more poverty. Why?

    Because producing for one's needs is called subsistence agriculture, and subjects one to the worst (and most historically prevalent) form of poverty imaginable.

    If we do not sell them (our cheaply produced) food in exchange for their (cheaply produced) consumer goods, they will be forced to rely upon subsistence farming, where one bad harvest can result in mass starvation. If we then give them free food while they are subsistence farmers, we will destroy what little hope they have of getting ahead, as our free food will ruin the ability of subsistence farmers to make a profit (by selling excess) and improving the farm.

    ---

    In other words, protectionism combined with charity destroys third-world economies.

  5. #15

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    I like your avatar, very pretty.

    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    This is rather simplistic isn't it??? Are you saying that in countries where obesity exists there are no people starving or malnourished? ...or that if obesity exists as a problem then all have enough to prosper?
    I'm saying that I dont believe there is poverty in countries where there are obescity epidemics.

    If people are malnourished or starving it is generally because of some other problem besides the ability of the country to produce or procure food and its availability to consumers.

    Squalor occurs most frequently when people in poverty do not have resources and feel helpless to do anything about it.
    In my experience that's a rationalisation which people who are sympathetic with people they consider less fortunate or prosperous than themselves make. Its not accurate.

    It is however comforting, if no one would voluntarily reduce themselves, their home, their community to destitution or a slum then hopefully with an adjustment there, a law reform here, that kind of thing will be a thing of the past. In reality its not as simple as that. In most cases where I've witnessed the worst squalor it isnt for want of money that it persists or cant be changed. Its generally habituation, often across generations.

    When I first had an experience of working with inner city homeless, itinerant and street sleepers I had a kind of college marxist view of their plight, but it didnt hold up against the reality of the encounter. At that time I was living on a very small allowance from my volunteer agency, yet I was able to make do.

    Is prosperity the opposite of poverty? Are we prepared to suffer less greed and spend less on things like ringtones and bling for our phones or name label goods? Would this in fact cause more poverty in those countries where a subsistence wage is paid for producing the wants (as opposed to needs) of we greedy westerners?
    Hmm, I think that's a very "right on" moralistic way of looking at things, who is it that buys all the bling and ringtones? Often its the same lower classes who're considered impoverished by more wealthy individuals in their own societies. I'm not sure that spending less in the developed world and perhaps donating the rest to charities elsewhere will eradicate poverty.

    I know in Australia poverty, relative to the grossly distended stomachs of the starving in 3rd world countries, could be said not to exist and I suspect likewise in any first world nation.

    I think tho that there needs to be a definition of poverty before it can be addressed, and the steps we need to take to eliminate it as the OP said.

    This question necessitates more questions before we can even begin to look at answers. The short and trite answers just don't cut it!
    I do think that the poverty of the under developed world is real, its a political and market failing that has caused that, it is a result of the power of developed nations and business communities relative to that of the developing world.

    That is structural poverty and its not going to be really diminished by personal and cultural changes on the parts of those populations it afflicts, though it wouldnt hurt.

  6. #16
    Lasting_Pain
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    Poverty Facts and Stats — Global Issues.

    I think this puts poverty into perspective.

    Also in the words of Gordon Gecko "Greed is Good" which i guess begs the question "What about generosity?"

  7. #17
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paradigm-shift View Post
    Eliminating overpopulation would help.
    This.



    I've wondered about this before. Many of our poor live in far better conditions than normal people in other countries (standard of living wise). The problem is that with industrialization and urbanization it becomes more difficult for a poor person to be self sufficient, whereas poor farmers/herders in other nations can still survive with little problem.

    It all really boils down to "lack of resources + over population = conflict" until the balance is brought back into place.

    What exactly what it mean to end poverty? Does it mean that we can provide for an unlimited number of people?
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  8. #18
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    I think another one of the problems is that for those who are wealthy it does not occur to people that others may want something that they don't want at a point in time because it is "worn" or past used so they think nobody else would want it.

    For example, bakeries. Often people do not buy day-old bread anymore, so once the day is done the bread goes to waste. Some bakeries donate the bread to food pantries, but not all do this. It's the same for many restaurants. The problem in many cases is not money or willingness to give but rather time in place, which can be remedied by technology.

    I think things like ebay may help remedy the problem, but it would need to become much more widespread and shipping would have to become much, much cheaper and more efficient. Here's for hoping towards instantaneous teleportation of goods sometime in the future.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  9. #19
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    No, poverty will not be eliminated. If everyone has money, prices will rise. This is what happened in Zimbabwe!

    "Hey, we'll eliminate poverty by giving everyone more money!"

    Whoops, price jump. Try again.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  10. #20
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cloud View Post
    Is it possible?
    Yes.

    What sort of innovation would be necessary to eliminate poverty?
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