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  1. #181
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    All right then... take away the bit about "milestone" and "major victory"... do you agree that, in theory at least, and given wise and benevolent distributions of resources, it might be possible to one day reach a point at which nobody dies for lack of resources?

    EDIT: I just noticed that we seem to be playing a "cat and mouse" game.
    I'll leave the ethical evaluation for you.

    *gently bats mouse with paw*

  2. #182
    Oberon
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    I'm guessing that Metaphor likes the premise of perpetual poverty because it means that his personal ideology will never become antiquated. If we lose the downtrodden, where will Marxism be then?

  3. #183
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I'm guessing that Metaphor likes the premise of perpetual poverty because it means that his personal ideology will never become antiquated. If we lose the downtrodden, where will Marxism be then?
    Of course, the Marxists speculate that capitalists need there to always be poor and unemployed people.

    There's a lot of trouble with speculating about the other guy's motives for making an argument.
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  4. #184
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Of course, the Marxists speculate that capitalists need there to always be poor and unemployed people.
    The capitalists would probably prefer that the poor and unemployed at least get their basic needs met, because then they become complacent. When their children are starving the proles tend to become restless and do things that make capitalists unhappy, such as becoming Marxists, joining labor unions and marching in the streets.

  5. #185
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I'm guessing that Metaphor likes the premise of perpetual poverty because it means that his personal ideology will never become antiquated. If we lose the downtrodden, where will Marxism be then?
    Fail on two fronts. I'll let you figure out both.

  6. #186
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    The capitalists would probably prefer that the poor and unemployed at least get their basic needs met, because then they become complacent. When their children are starving the proles tend to become restless and do things that make capitalists unhappy, such as becoming Marxists, joining labor unions and marching in the streets.
    You would think that, but I'm not seeing evidence of that. I think, perhaps they are either short-sighted or ignorant of the difficulties the poor face. Perhaps they also have become complacent.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #187
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    The capitalists would probably prefer that the poor and unemployed at least get their basic needs met, because then they become complacent. When their children are starving the proles tend to become restless and do things that make capitalists unhappy, such as becoming Marxists, joining labor unions and marching in the streets.
    Not true. People in the worst situation are not the most likely to revolt. Those who are seeing some, but small and slow improvement, are more likely to revolt. It's combination of being less pre-occupied with staying alive on a day-to-day basis and growing expectations.

    EDIT: Though a third postulation is that those in better conditions may also have better information flow and better education, and that would be condusive to revolution, too.
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  8. #188
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    EDIT: Though a third postulation is that those in better conditions may also have better information flow and better education, and that would be condusive to revolution, too.
    Interesting premise.

    In the age of the Internet, we have faster and more efficient flow of information (and misinformation) and in higher volumes than ever before. I wonder what the socio-economic implications are, then?

  9. #189
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Interesting premise.

    In the age of the Internet, we have faster and more efficient flow of information (and misinformation) and in higher volumes than ever before. I wonder what the socio-economic implications are, then?
    It still has a little ways to go. We'll see when it commonly false into the hands of the most downtrodden (which it hasn't yet).

    Of course, even if it does, that wouldn't ober-power the other two factors in my opinion.

    A third thing to worry about is if by the time this state is reached the internet has fallen fully into the grasp of some forces who might make it a mind-numbing propaganda tool. Then it wouldn't do much good.
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  10. #190
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Not true. People in the worst situation are not the most likely to revolt. Those who are seeing some, but small and slow improvement, are more likely to revolt. It's combination of being less pre-occupied with staying alive on a day-to-day basis and growing expectations.

    EDIT: Though a third postulation is that those in better conditions may also have better information flow and better education, and that would be condusive to revolution, too.
    Historically the groups most likely to revolt are those who feel something important was taken away from them.

    For example the Helots never revolted against the Spartans, because their lives where never that great to begin with. However, when the Athenians were conquered by the Spartans, the Athenians were used to living under a benevolent ruler and as a society they had a fair amount of wealth and freedom. So a few days later the Athenians stormed the palace and kicked the Spartans out. Thus Democracy was born.

    I also seem to recall some type of revolution instigated after colonists were forced to pay taxes on tea. Again they revolted after having something taken away.
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