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  1. #161
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    Not exclusively, no.
    But partially 'yes'?

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I do want to take the opportunity to point out that there actually have been business owners who have started businesses from day 1, paid their people a fair wage, and retired with millions. It is in fact possible to get pretty damn rich without treading upon the proletariat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    Well, yes, I suppose it is not impossible. To those people who have done so successfully, I applaud them.

    However, I would still argue that if they are "pretty damn rich," again depending on how you define it, but I take it to mean that they probably have multiple houses, cars and more money than they know what to do with, that they have an obligation to donate some of that excess wealth to help those in need. And, undoubtedly, many do. I'm just saying I think they have that obligation, ethically.
    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    ...and there ought to be a law to enforce that obligation, am I right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    I agree that excess wealth should be illegal, but only on the condition that I alone can determine what excess is.
    This is a very difficult situation which doesn't seem to have any ready answer.
    I have criticized the economic gap elsewhere, raising assumptions that I am trying to "implement socialism".
    I wished more people knew about type, so I could explain that I am a Perceiver, so I make observations but do not necessarily have a solution, where many of the people I have debated on this are likely Judgers, so to them you are either building up one system or the other, and you must stand for one, or otherwise must be trying to tear it down, and you must stand wholeheartedly for something, accepting its warts and all, or just shut up and don't say anything.

    But in addition to poverty, we still have a lot of middle class complaining about taxes and such, and many still blaming "social programs" (e.g. "Taxed Enough Already", with the assumption that it's all going to "liberal spending"); the latest being the health care bill.

    But most refuse to ever consider that the filthy rich might be the ones draining the economy. They argue that they "deserve" it because they "pulled up their bootstraps", and "the market" is what determines they should make that much.

    But still, this does not change the fact that their oncome is getting higher and higher, no matter the state of the economy. (As you can see here: How Many Workers Can You Hire for the Price of One CEO? - DailyFinance. It at one point had 60 pages of comments, with mostly conservatives excusing this and accusing everyone complaining about it as being lazy and wanting something for nothing themselves, but all of this was erased, and they started over).
    Even when they crash the intitution, they still get rewarded, go on $89,000 retreats, and bailed out from being "too big to fail" (and conservatives blame Obama for this instead of the executives).

    The problem is, what do we do about this? Radical liberal answers might be something like pay caps and regulation of wealth, but then this compromises our principles of freedom. And where do you draw the line?
    Conservatives are right, also, that to "punish" the capitalists will just cause them to pass whatever loss down to everyone else, through loss of jobs, higher prices, or just taking the business elsewhere.

    But then, it looks like they got us all by the throat, doesn't it!
    So the conservatives just try to point the blame in the opposite direction, like taking every welfare person or illegal immigrant or health care recipient, turning them upside down and shaking every penny off of them will recover the economy. Giving more to the rich will "create a bigger pie" they also claim. Yet every two decades they are given more, and then we suffer these crunches, increasingly radical Democrats are elcted, and then the back and forth debate begins as to which party's fault or credit the bad or good times are (the one in office, or the previous one).

    I liked the way the Zeitgest films spoke of the image of a "scarcity-based economy", when there is really abundance in the earth, that is concentrated through the fiat money/credit/debt system.

    As for poverty, there is no way to completely end that, as you can't control those in power. The only thing that can control them would be some super powerful government, but then who can control that? It will be the same imbalance, and then become abusive and corrupt itself.

    Many homeless I see (laying covered in waste-soiled clothes, etc) are mentally ill who are released from institutions that I imagine can't take care of them anymore. So money won't help them.
    And there are some who are lazy, or just don't aspire to more wealth. (In addition to the fact that "poverty" is a bit relative, anyway).

    So "ending poverty" I do not see as any sort of achievable goal. What I think we should focus on is trying to make things a bit more fair (and conservatives waver back and forth between saying "life isn't fair"; until they think something is unfair towards them, which they will insist be rectified!), and thus somehow finding a way to spread the abundance. But there just doesn't seem to be any way we know of to do that. Try to force people, or just let them do what they want, those who gain power will still take advantage.

    I call it the three T's for gain of power: Temperament/(type), Talent, and Typical ability/opportunity.

    I just wish for now, people will at least be aware of where all the money is really flowing, and stop trying to blame the poor. That will at least make it more likely someone will discover some better solution,instead of this endless loop of rises and falls and blame.
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  3. #163
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    But partially 'yes'?
    Yes, I think rich people should pay more taxes, partially for the purpose of providing for the poor. But obviously not all taxes go to that purpose, and I still think rich people should pay more, to help fix roads and whatnot.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

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  4. #164
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    Yes, I think rich people should pay more taxes, partially for the purpose of providing for the poor. But obviously not all taxes go to that purpose, and I still think rich people should pay more, to help fix roads and whatnot.
    When you say 'more,' what do you mean? More than what? More than the middle class is paying? More than the rich are paying now?

  5. #165
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    When you say 'more,' what do you mean? More than what? More than the middle class is paying? More than the rich are paying now?
    Yes, and yes.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

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  6. #166
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    Yes, and yes.
    Well, a big part of why we get so little money from them, particularly the very rich, isn't so much that they don't officially have high taxes, but that it is much easier for them to exploit loopholes that exempts them from taxes.

    But rest assured that any attempt to close those loopholes will find a loud, opposing voice in the legislator.
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  7. #167
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I agree that there is such a thing as relative poverty... however, one can also discuss absolute poverty, which is poverty in objective terms. This involves some very binary questions about whether someone has access to sufficient food, potable water, clothing, shelter, and medical care to sustain life.

    In this latter sense, poverty really isn't subjective.
    All of the examples given are subjective. Adjectives like sufficient and potable are subjective, as are terms like clothing, shelter and particularly medical care to sustain life.

    Human beings can live off far less than what is currently being defined by western nations.

    So then, it begs the question of quality of life which once again, is highly subjective.

    Poverty is a relative term therefore will never end.

  8. #168
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    All of the examples given are subjective. Adjectives like sufficient and potable are subjective, as are terms like clothing, shelter and particularly medical care to sustain life...

    ...So then, it begs the question of quality of life which once again, is highly subjective.

    Poverty is a relative term...
    I believe the above to be bullshit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    ...[Poverty] therefore will never end.
    That's true.

    "Sufficient" and "potable" are not relative terms; "Sufficent" means you get enough food that you can live on it long-term. "Potable" means you can drink it without getting sick. These are not difficult concepts. These enable us to differentiate between the poverty of the drought-stricken African herdsman who has a kid with a fly on his eye, as compared to the kids living out in a rural US county who are in the school lunch program and get their clothes at the Goodwill store.

    There's a fundamental difference between the poverty of people who are starving to death or dying of exposure or curable disease, and the poverty of people who do have a roof, clothing, food and water. This is a distinction that can and (I believe) should be made.

  9. #169
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    With all due respect which I can see isn't a strength of yours, define a universal level of potable water as it relates to microbes and human adaptation. Be specific rather than the airy-fairy generalized phrases that you're currently using.

    As far as sufficient food supply, this varies from person to person, country to country.

    It's all conditional and relative.

  10. #170
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    With all due respect which I can see isn't a strength of yours, define a universal level of potable water as it relates to microbes and human adaptation. Be specific rather than the airy-fairy generalized phrases that you're currently using.

    As far as sufficient food supply, this varies from person to person, country to country.

    It's all conditional and relative.
    Here's the acid test, Bubby: Are people dying for lack of material resources?

    That's not relative. It may be on a gradient, but it's neither relative nor subjective.

    With regard to respect, say something that isn't patently bullshit and you will have earned mine.

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