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  1. #111
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Architectonic View Post
    You don't remember the troubles in Ireland?
    The "troubles" in Ireland were driven by identity politics going back to the time of the Tudors, not religious ideology per se.

  2. #112
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Haters gonna hate

  3. #113
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I kind of look at the Christian Fundamentalist/Islamic Fundamentalist thing as simply a matter of time -- they are just a couple hundred years behind us and that they will probably mellow out like we did given time and the opportunity to progress.

    Maybe that's naive?
    I don't know about Islam, but in Christian circles the Fundamentalist groups tend to be the newer denominations, while the older denominations tend to be more liberal. For example the Pentacostal movement is fairly recent, while Lutheran and Presbyterian churches are centuries old and fairly liberal (theologically speaking).

    This is basically because the Bible provides something of a vision for enthusiastic church growth. So the "back to the Bible" approach leads to new growth because the group has a coherent vision. This is true even though the specifics of each vision tend to be different from each other. The older denominations eventually become more liberal in their theology, because they have lost their original focus and enthusiasm.

    Fundamentalism does not represent the past. It represents the future. What I can't say is whether this future will involve the majority or whether it will only be a niche group.
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  4. #114
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    In other words, it's not reasonable to say that Muslim-ideology-driven violence and Christian-ideology-driven violence are comparable. There's no equivalence between the two.
    Exactly.

    And frankly, the violent Islamists are not nearly as dangerous to basic human rights as the peaceful Islamists.

    I wouldn't burn korans; its a gratuitous insult to all Muslims and an action, if applied to any other holy book, that would be just as offensive to other religions. Drawing pictures of Mohammed is a much more constructive means of making a point about freedom of religion and speech, though I doubt that such is this pastor's motivation. That said, I'm MUCH more offended by any suggestions that the pastor should not have the right to do what he's doing than I would be if the pastor in question were burning copies of the Constitution or American flags.

    Here is a recent article on the subject by a Muslim woman imploring her co-religionist to get over their defensiveness and instead concentrate on reforming Islam; some Muslims might be wondering exactly what people like me expect from them during debates such as these-this is it: Get Over the Quran Burning - The Daily Beast

  5. #115
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Freedom of speech is not contingent on no-one being offended. Free speech is sacred to us. Condemning the pastor's views without also expressing support for his right to express them is not being true to our own ideals. We are effectively renouncing some of our rights.
    No. We wouldn't say to Hitler, sure, hate the Jews, make speeches, posters, videos, whatever you want because we believe in the freedom of speech. We'd say no, spreading hatred and being a disgrace to humanity isn't cool. His freedom is protected in that no one's telling him it's illegal and arresting his butt for putting our mission for peace in the Middle East in jeopardy. We don't have to support every stupid endeavor, obviously.

  6. #116
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    I hope this asinine act evolves into an amusing media event.

  7. #117
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    The "troubles" in Ireland were driven by identity politics going back to the time of the Tudors, not religious ideology per se.
    Actually it goes back even before then to when Henry II first invaded Ireland in the late 1100s.

  8. #118
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Instead, let's throw our Bibles and Kurans in the paper recycle bin to protect our forests and children from their nefarious influence.
    And what about Torahs and Talmuds?

  9. #119
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    hmm interesting, the cancelled the burning event...since the imam group in new york agreed to move the location elsewhere from ground zero location? ...Wonder if I heared that right

  10. #120
    figsfiggyfigs
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    This isn't exactly going to encourage affection between the two religions....

    edit: culture AND worlds.

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