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  1. #21
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Whether people like it or not, the law is not designed to protect only those who you deem 'worthy' of protection.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    If the legal system operated using that mindset, all people's rights would be at risk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    If it's his right to sue, then that should not be taken from him, even if his past actions were criminal or illegal. If people should not have the right to sue, then that should be explicitly stated within the law; but since it isn't, the system should be impartial. The man wasn't sentenced to have his throat slashed, or to be scalded by hot water. That's not part of the deal. He should have been secure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I haven't seen anyone in this thread who is "standing up for wounded pedophiles." What a crass thing to suggest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm leery on mucking with due process because it puts everyone at risk. I guess it's easy to say it should be jettisoned, though, if you don't happen to be the accused... at least, until YOUR neck happens to be on the line.
    I agree 100% with the above.

    It really sickens me how barbaric some peoples' sense of justice is.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm really glad I've got the people standing up for wounded peadophiles on ignore.
    Sounds a lot like "You're either with US or with the PEDOPHILES."

    Disgusting.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    I think Lark just wants everyone to discuss the moral aspects of what is going on, assuming that the guy is in fact guilty and performed an act considered quit heinous. Talking about possibilities that have a high probably of not bearing on the reality of the situation is what I think he doesn't want to participate in. I think anyway. I guess Lark can make it clear if he wants.

    Morally speaking, if the guy is guilty and performed a heinous act similar to the one in Green Mile, then he doesn't deserve to reap any profit from going against the state. The only thing that might happen is that prisons are reformed for the better. But honestly for a crime such as his, there should be consideration over whether or not such people should even be put in prisons or just killed (or maybe at least given the choice to let the family kill him or put him in prison, whichever they decide over the other). That shit is probably ranking among the worst things someone can do to another person. They don't even get to go down at least fighting with some dignity; it makes historical gladiators and medieval knights look like angels. And I realize that this means some non-guilty people could get killed, but nothing is ever really perfect, is it? Such is the human condition, I suppose...
    Yes, I agree. I even see Lark's point, and agree with him to a certain extent.

    However, his language is a clear abuse of moral rhetoric intended to persuade the audience, which is more befitting to the philosophy and religion section than the current events one. It also doesn't make him seem very ENTJ...

  3. #23
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    It would be nice if people tried to actually understand another person's POV before publicly slandering their character. I haven't seen anyone in this thread who is "standing up for wounded pedophiles." What a crass thing to suggest.

    ... and note the (mis)spelling. Again.

    There have been some interesting cases here with rapists. Turns out some of them weren't guilty of the crime they were convicted of, after DNA tests could be done. Too bad, they spent 20+ years in jail already. I guess they're lucky they weren't executed by a lynchmob before they could be exonerated.

    I'm leery on mucking with due process because it puts everyone at risk. I guess it's easy to say it should be jettisoned, though, if you don't happen to be the accused... at least, until YOUR neck happens to be on the line.
    Dont be a facetious liberal!

    This is a confirmed case, there's no shadow of a doubt about the guilt of the individual, he's now using the mindset that regardless of his own predatory character that he deserves the protection which his victims never had in order to rip of the tax payer.

    The natural reaction to it should be one of disgust and I dont understand the sort of mindset which presumes innocence or instead uses it as an occasion to discuss abstract principles of rights as applied to all.

    I think I've given due respect, the individuals which I suggested where taking the defensive position in regard to this case where quoted by others in the thread and that's how I saw it. Now I believe its a complete dodge to suggest cases like these occasion abstract reckoning about rights, it is objectively pro-plantif, in the same way as Orwell, I believe rightly, described pacifism and left wing sabotage of the war effort against Nazi Germany as "objectively pro-Hitler" or "objectively pro-fascist".

    I could be the J operating but, hell, it works for me and could make the world a better and much less ambivalent place.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    I think Lark just wants everyone to discuss the moral aspects of what is going on, assuming that the guy is in fact guilty and performed an act considered quit heinous. Talking about possibilities that have a high probably of not bearing on the reality of the situation is what I think he doesn't want to participate in. I think anyway. I guess Lark can make it clear if he wants.
    This is absolutely the case.

    If I had wanted to embark upon the other sort of discussion I would have created that sort of a thread and framed it that way, as in "Do you believe that criminals have a right to expect the sorts of protection from the state which it was unable to afford their victims?" and ran with that. Its a good topic maybe but its off topic for this thread.

    Morally speaking, if the guy is guilty and performed a heinous act similar to the one in Green Mile, then he doesn't deserve to reap any profit from going against the state. The only thing that might happen is that prisons are reformed for the better. But honestly for a crime such as his, there should be consideration over whether or not such people should even be put in prisons or just killed (or maybe at least given the choice to let the family kill him or put him in prison, whichever they decide over the other). That shit is probably ranking among the worst things someone can do to another person. They don't even get to go down at least fighting with some dignity; it makes historical gladiators and medieval knights look like angels. And I realize that this means some non-guilty people could get killed, but nothing is ever really perfect, is it? Such is the human condition, I suppose...
    I agree with this too, in the UK there is a growing sentiment that the criminal justice is more and more reflecting "a lot of law and little justice", considering specifically this case.

    This guy murdered two school children which he had stalked and targetted, now he has admitted to the crime and has a long history of seducing adolescents (minors) but due to a clerical error in the police system those records where deleted, he's out and out predatory. He's always worked in low paid janitorial jobs, in part because it allows him to stalk children.

    He has escalated his crimes from abuse to murder and found himself in prison, now because of something which I would deem not unexpected and an unfortunate matter of fact in prison life, prison populations comprising violent individuals, he could have a financial windfall which would place him a more wealthy position than he has ever been in.

    He objectified and killed some of the most vulnerable members of society, he then was rescued from his own attempt on his life (which at the time I did think was indicative of the fact that he was finding incarceration a harsher penalty than execution, the topic of execution is slightly different from what I'm attempting to discuss here) and he could be in line for a big cash kick back. How is that a disincentive for others who might be planning something similar? Its a positive incentive! What about the moral and morale impact on the victims and other members of the public?

    There is a likelihood that if he where to receive a windfall that the families of the victims could sue either the state or him personally or both but to me that's another case of "a lot of law", its a sort of bureaucratic money changing hands "satisfaction" which doesnt cut it.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Here's what I'm curious about: what are his actual damages? Is he going to be billed for the medical care he received in prison after these attacks? For a couple of different reasons I very much doubt he will be- so his "damages" are pain and suffering? If that's the case, I would only support this if anything that is awarded goes to the families of his victims whose pain and suffering predate his and are as yet uncompensated for.
    He's looking at a complete payment of about £100,000, now the thing about this is that figure has been settled upon by his solicitors and barristers who know what is likely to be paid and are probably planning to negotiate at settlement which may be less but will be in that ball park.

    I know that because of a settlment I got when I almost loast a finger flushing a toilet on a train here and insurance court when someone rammed their car into mine at a junction. I've also known about similar claims planned or filed against social services when children where placed in the care of local authorities because parents where abusive or negligent only to suffer at the hands of other delinquent, sometimes predatory, children.

    Here's a story which gives you an insight into the man and the claims system:-

    Ian Huntley sex abuse girl's cash claim - mirror.co.uk

    Here's another bit of interest, which makes a comparison between criminal injuries claims by the law abidding and this claim by the child killer himself:-

    The Press Association: Payne sickened by Huntley claim bid

  6. #26
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    I agree 100% with the above.

    It really sickens me how barbaric some peoples' sense of justice is.

    Sounds a lot like "You're either with US or with the PEDOPHILES."

    Disgusting.
    I dont care what is sounds like, stop importing meanings into things I've written, if that was my view you can be pretty certain that is what I would've wrote.

    Its a pretty sloppy way to go about a discussion replying to what people have said with "what you mean is...", what they mean is what they've said. Simple as. Any other meaning that appears is being put there for a reason.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    So, what - if I steal a CD from WalMart, then suddenly I am an outlaw, and anyone else, outlaw or not, is given a warrant to slice me up?
    Does that seem reasonable to you?

    On the other hand if you do this a logical and natural consequence is that you're run the risk of apprehension and then punishment, if that punishment involves incarceration with violent others then its a logical and natural consequence that you could be victimised by them.

    Pretty good incentive not to commit crimes but besides that logical and natural consequences of behaviour. I dont like paternalism run amok.

  8. #28
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    I do have to say though guys: why all the interest in pedophilia these days?
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Whether people like it or not, the law is not designed to protect only those who you deem 'worthy' of protection.
    This. The crime shouldn't be decriminalized because of the victim's past or own criminal history
    “'Fuck', I think. What a beautiful word. If I could say only one thing for the rest of my life, that would be it.”

  10. #30
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Moved a whole bunch of posts (more than stayed in, in fact) out to a new thread in Feedback:

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...protected.html
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

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