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  1. #1
    Senior Member lightsun's Avatar
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    Default Obama care; Tea Baggers (Covservatives) agiainst The Coffee Pot Movement (liberal)

    I believe in a change of government (at least massive government reform). What that change may be, I do not really know. This is a serious issue as well as problem. I unfortunately see the status quo ruling and not wanting to give their power up. What is mine is mine. Folks we need to work together in order to fulfill the greatest good.


    The people with money on a never ending task to make even more money. Money & riches pursued at the expense of the hardship of people. A money issue, rather than a people, healthy, happiness issue. “Really there happens to be a terrible mal-distribution of the wealth of our country. What is of paramount importance is education for all the people.


    It makes me angry a people give multi-millions upon billions to a certain sequestered segment of our society. At the same time we are not addressing the needs of our young generation, nor have adequate and humane health care in this great nation of ours. It is certainly no excuse in our country for the aspect of poverty. There is not enough funding nor importance placed on education. Every day children run hungry due to poverty. We do not take care of our environment.


    We happen to be quick as well ill advised in deciding to go to war. Never mind that the human mind is not built in witnessing repeated trauma nor being an actor being caught up in a traumatic situation and environment. This is especially if it is recurrent. A whole host of societal issues await us. There needs reforming as well evolvement in our consciousness.


    In Eisenhower’s day one person made an income adequate in taking care for a whole family. Now even two person’s working together can not keep up and make ends meet. We also addressed all the infrastructure in the United States in the 50’s era. Now all of the government institutions happen to be going bankrupt and we are hopelessly over indebted.


    A rich powerful lobbying group and interests keep allowing a small percentage living as a veritable emperor and not paying taxes that is needed if this country is to remain vibrant. Come on, no person’s work is worthy of such fortunes. It is inequity of massive proportions. I say the people who by the grace of God who are making all this money hold it only in trust.

    We are a Christian nation. We supposedly are labeled as such yet to not live up to the standard which Christ proclaimed. Christ preaches from an avenue of the poor’s perspective and the downtrodden. He said, ‘It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than it is for a rich man (or woman) to enter the kingdom of heaven.’ Riches and also having too much power can corrupt, just look at our institutions. As a ‘Christian’ nation we must work for the interests of all.”

  2. #2
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    *gasp*

    Somebody get some line breaks in here before it's too late!
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #3
    Senior Member lightsun's Avatar
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    Default Obama care

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    *gasp*

    Somebody get some line breaks in here before it's too late!
    Thanks Magic Poriferan. I put in needed line breaks.

  4. #4

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    Interesting, I would say two things which I think are pretty important when considering your OP:-

    - Christianity is not reduceable to charitable giving or sharing the wealth, the admonishments about wealth in the gospels are about priorities and spiritual blindness, the good samaritan had money in his pocket to pay for the accomadation of the battered and robbed guy he met along the road.

    - Can a society which affirms unhealthy lifestyle choices as expressions of freedom, ie smoking, drinking, over eating, freedom being valued to a greater extent than any competiting value or cultural norm, afford to pay the consequent bills.

    Criticisms of the habits of wealthy individuals and families, criticism of inequality and polarisation, criticisms of government spending priorities, they are all very well but they will not address either of these two central points.

    The problem with most of the traditional socialist or socialistic criticisms of wealth are that they are effectively "time locked", the hark from a time of widespread malnutrition, starvation, mono-diets, when either wealth, ie money, had not been accumulated or was not circulated as it is now through taxation and spending in welfare capitalism.

    Long on platitudes and short on policies these critiques provided the narrative which allowed for the structural adjustments at the heart of mixed economies and welfare capitalism which typifies all modern economies.

    However, these pre-prosperity narratives remain a species of argument from a different time and place, can you say there is poverty in any real sense when obescity and morbid obescity has replaced starvation? Really? I say that as a hardline socialist myself. Now for very different reasons, ie subverting the military-industrial complex, moving the locus of the economy to correspond with the rise of biotech industry and commerce etc. I consider the Obama care reforms to have legitimacy as public policy. None of which requires vague attacks on rich folk.

    I've always known that the coffee houses in the US where associated with commies, its something which we've never understood here, its very associated with middle class ways and American habits to my parents generation (which I'm closer to than my own maybe), also I'm familiar with Benjamin Franklin believing that the US was superior to the UK because it was a coffee as oppose to (small) beer drinking nation (examples predate public sanitation and clean drinking water). Maybe its the intellectuals beverage and tea is a vague reference to the tea party in US history as a prelude to revolution. I dont know you want to emulate your opposition there, it means to be threatening, do you want that?

    The thing about the divide in US politics now is that you have an increasingly militant tendency on the right wing which wants to return to an agrarian, pre-industrial, pre-modern society of Jeffersonian small holders through hating on the unemployed and benefits dependent who're not going to acknowledge anything that doesnt fit with that, ie jobless growth, mixed economies, universal keynesianism. I dont know that creating a left equivalent is going to be the best decision ever.

  5. #5
    cast shadows metaphours's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    However, these pre-prosperity narratives remain a species of argument from a different time and place, can you say there is poverty in any real sense when obescity and morbid obescity has replaced starvation? Really?
    Good point, but one of the reasons why obesity has replaced starvation is because McFood is so much cheaper than fresh, healthy food. Someone can go to Burger King and buy a meal for themselves and their family for less than $20 as opposed to going to the supermarket and buying all the ingredients for a similar meal; having to cook it on a stove, inevitably jacking up their electric bill, etc.

  6. #6
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metaphours View Post
    Someone can go to Burger King and buy a meal for themselves and their family for less than $20 as opposed to going to the supermarket and buying all the ingredients for a similar meal; having to cook it on a stove, inevitably jacking up their electric bill, etc.
    I am not certain how different the US is to Australia but I would have to argue with that! Fresh veg and fruit, if bought carefully, from local farmer markets or the like, and in season, is about the same cost or less here in Aus. It is the prepackaged, nutritionally compromised, compounded junk, with all of the nasty additives, from the supermarkets that can be expensive here. When you consider the fuel and/or delivery costs the cost expands.

    I would offer that it is just ignorance, strangely mutated tastebuds (which can be retrained as they are continually replaced in a relatively short period), or laziness that is the key cause. By shopping local and smart, not only is the nutrition aspect addressed but so are some of the major problems of the environment - greenhouse gases from transport of packaged food long distances, their manufacture, and more.

    I have a wonderful American friend who is a "coffee house" person. She came and stayed with us for three months just after W's second election. She told us she didn't know how to cook!!! She lived with her sister and BIL and their children, was 56yo and most of their eating was done in fast food halls, restaurants or reheat frozen meals from the supermarket.

    While here she ate fresh food, home cooked and could not believe the taste. Our fresh fish we buy from the fishmonger and clean and prepare ourselves, we eat non feedlot meats, and have fresh veg, herbs and fruit, some of which we grow ourselves.

    We gave er some simple recipes and spent some time showing her how to cook before she went home.

    One of our heirloom seed saver groups here also do a seed pack for families on health care that will give them a year's worth of veg seeds for around AU$30. This provides a whole year's supply!!
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  7. #7
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Um... :confused: Coffee Pot Movement? Do you mean "The Coffee Party Movement"? If so, I'm not sure how that group is bad... or liberal. The whole point of it is creating dialogue between people of all political beliefs, to help solve problems in a civil manner. I fail to see what's bad about that.

    Also... I hear your complaints. I recognize them as being valid. But I want to hear solutions, or else this thread is just going to be about bitching. And bitching about stuff and not doing anything about it is not productive.
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  8. #8
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    I agree with the sentiment of the OP, all of it. I've always been puzzled by the connection between Christianity and fiscal neo-conservatism...seems like the opposite of Christianity to me...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    I am not certain how different the US is to Australia but I would have to argue with that! Fresh veg and fruit, if bought carefully, from local farmer markets or the like, and in season, is about the same cost or less here in Aus. It is the prepackaged, nutritionally compromised, compounded junk, with all of the nasty additives, from the supermarkets that can be expensive here. When you consider the fuel and/or delivery costs the cost expands.

    I would offer that it is just ignorance, strangely mutated tastebuds (which can be retrained as they are continually replaced in a relatively short period), or laziness that is the key cause. By shopping local and smart, not only is the nutrition aspect addressed but so are some of the major problems of the environment - greenhouse gases from transport of packaged food long distances, their manufacture, and more.

    I have a wonderful American friend who is a "coffee house" person. She came and stayed with us for three months just after W's second election. She told us she didn't know how to cook!!! She lived with her sister and BIL and their children, was 56yo and most of their eating was done in fast food halls, restaurants or reheat frozen meals from the supermarket.

    While here she ate fresh food, home cooked and could not believe the taste. Our fresh fish we buy from the fishmonger and clean and prepare ourselves, we eat non feedlot meats, and have fresh veg, herbs and fruit, some of which we grow ourselves.

    We gave er some simple recipes and spent some time showing her how to cook before she went home.

    One of our heirloom seed saver groups here also do a seed pack for families on health care that will give them a year's worth of veg seeds for around AU$30. This provides a whole year's supply!!
    Yeah, it is different in the U.S. There's a post-industrialist condition in poor urban areas that I believe is commonly referred to as "food deserts"...where fresh food is difficult to obtain because all of the closest stores are convenience stores or fast food - not groceries or farmer's markets - and many of the people don't have cars but do have children to drag with them on foot or on the bus on the trek to get fresh food. It's mainly an urban problem, though, it's less of a problem for poor people in, say, West Virginia where there are more farmer's markets and family vegetable gardens... but people still purchase fast food and convenience food items because of the busy stress of post-industrialist life.

    It's a complex societal problem and can't be easily attributed to one simple thing. I know they've made some changes to the WIC program which forces parents to buy fresh fruit and vegetables, wheat bread, and other healthier items.

  10. #10
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I can't afford the farmer's market in my town. It's more of a boutique for yuppies than a place to feed a family. I can cook cheaper than eat out most of the time, but it is not locally grown or organic and the meat is factory farmed.

    I have a vegetable garden, but I'm still working my execution -- way too many tomatoes and zucchini this year and not much else. I also keep a few chickens for eggs because it happens to be legal in my town. It isn't legal in many.

    In my area, poor people eat a lot of potatoes, pastas, and refined white flour products -- it is cheap and filling, but it can lead to bad health and obesity. We are landlocked and fish is expensive, except for canned tuna. I would probably try to catch fish for us to eat but I worry about the agricultural run-off from all the corn and soybeans around here.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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