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  1. #51
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    I hate to say it, Whatever, but Wolf started this thread.
    Yes he did and if anyone derailed it, it was me (sorry!).
    I also have to agree with you... you are not dumb. (((hugs))) Some of the things that you have posted on this forum has amazed me -- I know you are very smart.
    No whatever is not dumb, I agree.
    Also, this is going to be so unpopular, and I may lose the few friends that I have on ths forum, but I agree with Wolf. I personally don't see him as being a woman hater... he just seems to have his own opinion on the current options (like everyone here). It's just not popular.
    I am sorry you feel as though sharing your opinion would make you unpopular. I disagree.
    There, I said it.


    whatever you are a refreshing and fun addition to this forum and I am so glad you're here! I do however disagree with your comment about wikipedia not being a valid source of information. I think it's one of the best sources of information readily available to us.

    And I still think Wolf isn't a very down to earth person and can be condescending. If he lightened up and worked on letting that big wall down, I believe he would find the happiness he's been longing for. Not that it matters what I think!
    Time is a delicate mistress.

  2. #52
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    Now, obviously I am a woman and not a woman hater, HOWEVER... I have no respect for Hillary Clinton, and I would rather shoot myself in the head than vote for her. Give me an option like Condoleeza Rice, and I would be happy to vote for her. Just so everyone knows, I was once a rabid and very misguided liberal before children... after children, I have grown into a hard-line conservative.
    There, I said it.
    I think that Condoleeza's smart and plenty talented, but her association with the Bush administration has forever tainted her, in my opinion. Anyway, not the reason I was posting . When you say that you've become a hard-line conservative, Sandy, what do you mean? Which issues and viewpoints are important to you now, that weren't before? I tend to think of conservatives as people who favor low taxes and low spending, more traditional in social issues, etc. Not at all the same issues that the current administration values (although they try to sell their actions as such).

    Another question... I know that a lot of people don't like Hillary (although I've never seen her as any different from many other politicians, that way, and she receives FAR more than her fair share of criticism in the media). But if the choice were between her and Bush (assuming he could run for another term), given all of the horrible things he's done, would you vote for her as the lesser of two evils?

    I'm far from unbiased, I'll admit - I've loathed Bush since before he took office, and he's vastly exceeded my fears about him in every respect. As much as the idealist in me hates the idea, this is my largest concern with Hillary winning the democratic primary. She's so polarizing that I fear many people who don't like her would happily vote for someone whose policies would be poor for the country just to keep her out of office.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Sandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    I think that Condoleeza's smart and plenty talented, but her association with the Bush administration has forever tainted her, in my opinion. Anyway, not the reason I was posting . When you say that you've become a hard-line conservative, Sandy, what do you mean? Which issues and viewpoints are important to you now, that weren't before? I tend to think of conservatives as people who favor low taxes and low spending, more traditional in social issues, etc. Not at all the same issues that the current administration values (although they try to sell their actions as such).

    Another question... I know that a lot of people don't like Hillary (although I've never seen her as any different from many other politicians, that way, and she receives FAR more than her fair share of criticism in the media). But if the choice were between her and Bush (assuming he could run for another term), given all of the horrible things he's done, would you vote for her as the lesser of two evils?

    I'm far from unbiased, I'll admit - I've loathed Bush since before he took office, and he's vastly exceeded my fears about him in every respect. As much as the idealist in me hates the idea, this is my largest concern with Hillary winning the democratic primary. She's so polarizing that I fear many people who don't like her would happily vote for someone whose policies would be poor for the country just to keep her out of office.
    See, that's where I differ from you, kelric. Other than a few major issues with President Bush (border issues, illegal immigration, and throwing money to projects that I believe shouldn't be funded), I pretty much agree with him on many issues, except I think he's even more liberal than I am (I'm in favor of low taxes AND low spending - I am pro Fair Tax, and I hope that I can witness this getting off the ground and dismantling the IRS in my lifetime).

    If I had to vote for President Bush or Hillary, there is no contest... he gets my vote. He may not be the best in communication (sad truth), but he stands firm in many areas that I believe in.

    Again, I know this will not make me popular here, but this is my truth. I have been on both sides of the fence politically, and think I can appreciate many a viewpoint; I absolutely believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion. I sure can't deny what I believe in, though.

    Thanks, Jen, for being so understanding. (((major hugs))) Also, despite my political leanings, I appreciate everyone here and their thoughts.

    Ooh... I am experiencing a deja vu.
    -Sandy
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  4. #54
    Senior Member Sandy's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, kelric, I failed to explain to you what has changed with me from when my political leanings were more liberal.

    When I was younger, I had thought that the government should take care of people more than they did. This was my major change. I bought into the Democratic mantra in many areas.

    I realized that as I gotten older with a family, I want to make decisions for my family, and I don't want the government in my life. I have and continue to donate my time and resources to charities that do good work for those who are in need. I don't want to pay my hard earned money into a system that I think has gotten so corrupt and too big. It's out of control with very little checks and balances.

    I have always thought, however, that the government should be militarily strong. Regarding immigration, that has never changed for me. I have no problem with immigration, but I have a big problem with illegal immigration. My Mom came here to the United States through proper channels and was naturalized after so many years. She had enmeshed herself in the American culture and learned English and had been a good citizen here. She never demanded that others cater to her lifestyle. She was a hard worker and nobody handed her anything. My entire family has learned from her and my Father's hard work ethic. Life is hard, and it's unfair, and I don't think anybody should expect anything than what they put into it. I don't agree in handouts, but I agree in giving a helping hand. I agree in tough love and sinking or swimming.

    I hope this helps.
    Last edited by Sandy; 01-12-2008 at 04:36 PM. Reason: Oops! I didn't finish this thought properly.
    -Sandy
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  5. #55
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    In my book, believing in government aid does not qualify as liberal.
    I think strong government is authoritarian, and weak government is libertarian. It's an entirely different spectrum.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #56
    Senior Member Sandy's Avatar
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    Actually, if a 3rd party had a chance (Libertarian), I would vote as a Libertarian. But since there is no chance, I vote primarily as a Repub.

    One example: I don't agree that the government should give social security disability to drug abusers and alcoholics. I think this is an abuse to tax payers. (My ex-husband was both and received money while he drank and drugged his social security disability money away while he laid on his lazy a$$ and watched movies all day long. His wife had to work hard and find someone to take care of their children -- That ticked me off). Thankfully, he's been sober for one year now, and that's due to a new medication that has helped with his cravings. 12 step didn't help him, unfortunately.
    -Sandy
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  7. #57
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I don't have anything against you for thinking oppostily of me Sandy! I hold nothing against people who think differently than me You seem to know why you beleive what you do, so that's what matters the most!

    I don't care if wolf started the thread or not- he should NOT have called my education bogus and told me flat out that I was wrong- THAT is very rude! I personally never said that he hated women- I was just pointing out that it IS possible for a liberal woman to be elected to a high office. I completely disagree with wolf's idea that everyone is an authoritatian- but I'm not arguing about that- I'm just defending my point from his unwarrented attacks!

    I really don't think that I deserved the treatment that I got on this thread at all- I think that it was out of line and flat out rude! :sad:


    oh- the wikipedia comment came from the fact that it is banned from use for academic purposes by most colleges in the US now!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  8. #58
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    Actually, if a 3rd party had a chance (Libertarian), I would vote as a Libertarian. But since there is no chance, I vote primarily as a Repub.

    One example: I don't agree that the government should give social security disability to drug abusers and alcoholics. I think this is an abuse to tax payers. (My ex-husband was both and received money while he drank and drugged his social security disability money away while he laid on his lazy a$$ and watched movies all day long. His wife had to work hard and find someone to take care of their children -- That ticked me off). Thankfully, he's been sober for one year now, and that's due to a new medication that has helped with his cravings. 12 step didn't help him, unfortunately.

    I have a strangely similar idea in spite of my extremely different political views. I want national healthcare, but I thought that in order to take some weight off of the system and provide to those in need, all registered drug users should get cut-off from healthcare.
    They can come back any time they clean up. All is forgiven.
    You see, I don't think drug users should be arrested either. I don't want them costing money in any way, shape, or form.

    *sigh*. I have the kind of ideas that make blue states and red states hate me.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #59
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    I realized that as I gotten older with a family, I want to make decisions for my family, and I don't want the government in my life. I have and continue to donate my time and resources to charities that do good work for those who are in need. I don't want to pay my hard earned money into a system that I think has gotten so corrupt and too big. It's out of control with very little checks and balances.
    I'd disagree with the fact that the current batch of "conservatives" (I'd not argue if you say that you, as a conservative, disagree with them) think that they shouldn't be as involved in your life, and the life of your family. For the most part, the difference between the "left" and "right" political spectrum in the U.S. currently has nothing to do with *how* they want to interfere in the lives of people - they just want to butt in on different issues (due to my biases, I see the republicans as *far* worse in this regard, but I can understand why folks with other viewpoints could see the opposite).

    I certainly wouldn't say that the current administration supports a strengthening of checks and balances - Bush is almost certainly the worst abuser of our system of checks and balances in recent memory. Whoever gets elected in any Federal election, this needs to change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    I have always thought, however, that the government should be militarily strong.
    To what end? Just curious - there's a big difference between a nation prepared to defend itself (my bet is almost everyone likes this investment in the military), and a nation interested in projecting military power elsewhere in the world to push the agenda of business interests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    Regarding immigration, that has never changed for me. I have no problem with immigration, but I have a big problem with illegal immigration. My Mom came here to the United States through proper channels and was naturalized after so many years. She had enmeshed herself in the American culture and learned English and had been a good citizen here. She never demanded that others cater to her lifestyle. She was a hard worker and nobody handed her anything. My entire family has learned from her and my Father's hard work ethic.
    Agreed - there's certainly room for compassion, but as long as there are avenues for people to immigrate legally, that's the route that should be taken. Note that legal immigrants also aren't as easily exploited - another thing to consider.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    Life is hard, and it's unfair, and I don't think anybody should expect anything than what they put into it. I don't agree in handouts, but I agree in giving a helping hand. I agree in tough love and sinking or swimming.
    You're right - life's not fair, and working hard to get ahead isn't a bad thing. But there is some sort of social support net that needs to exist - people with no choices do desperate things, and I have far more faith in government, which is at least nominally accountable to the people, than private institutions to administer aid fairly. If social programs are used to increase the lowest common denominator of quality of life to a point where anyone has a realistic chance to pursue their dreams (I believe we're not at this point now), that's a good thing for society as a whole. The problem, of course, is corruption and pork. No perfect answers from me, but I side on the end of more social services (and absolutely for a single-payer medical coverage system).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    I pretty much agree with him on many issues, except I think he's even more liberal than I am (I'm in favor of low taxes AND low spending
    Preferring lower taxes and lower spending on services makes you a conservative. Preferring higher taxes and higher spending on services makes me a liberal. Both are reasonable fiscal policies. Lower taxes and higher spending, like Bush (and he's far from alone in blame for this) is simply stupid long-term fiscal policy (although it can get you elected, unfortunately). Not an issue of him being "more liberal" than you are - it's just bad fiscal policy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    I hope this helps.
    It does - thanks for responding. It's pretty clear that neither of us is going to convince the other of much, but that's ok . Reasonable people can disagree, especially when the issues are complex (but I still think I'm right ).

    Having said all that, I appear to have driven this thread even farther off track, and for that I apologize. I'll try to restrain myself from continuing to do so.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Sandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I don't have anything against you for thinking oppostily of me Sandy! I hold nothing against people who think differently than me You seem to know why you beleive what you do, so that's what matters the most!
    I think you are a doll, whatever!

    I don't care if wolf started the thread or not- he should NOT have called my education bogus and told me flat out that I was wrong- THAT is very rude! I personally never said that he hated women- I was just pointing out that it IS possible for a liberal woman to be elected to a high office. I completely disagree with wolf's idea that everyone is an authoritatian- but I'm not arguing about that- I'm just defending my point from his unwarrented attacks!

    I really don't think that I deserved the treatment that I got on this thread at all- I think that it was out of line and flat out rude! :sad:
    When you mentioned somebody else's thread, I didn't know if you had noticed that he started the thread. I didn't mean to offend -- just pointing it out. I totally understand... Wolf's response was harsh, and I know that had to hurt.
    -Sandy
    I - 75% N - 55% F - 55% P - 61%
    Enneagram 4w5

    There is love... in the red letters
    There is truth... in the red letters

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