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  1. #21
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    If COIN is rejected, if the civilian government doesn't do its part, if we fail in Afghanistan, it will hurt us the next time around when once again we are unprepared for the next counterinsurgency operation--which will happen as most conflicts in the near future will be insurgencies against failing states. This will also be a detriment to counterterror operations, since the two are often linked.
    Which is really out of keeping with the cliche of an imperialist power run amok.

    This is a good post but is unlikely to feature in any news analysis or even political analysis of the conflict, the left and right are converging on isolationism for different reasons and everyone is crying withdraw, now, no good can come of this.

    I'm more pessimistic about that than this single conflict, it sort of heralds a trend in which people really do prefer their own abstract theorising to what's going on and doesnt fit the conventional, and over simplified, left vs. right, goodies vs. baddies sort of thinking.

  2. #22
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Oh, I forgot to mention: damn Wikileaks to hell.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  3. #23
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Oh, I forgot to mention: damn Wikileaks to hell.


    I think that guy is screwed, seriously, what the hell did he imagine he was doing?

    Bets he's just a well meaning liberal caught in the spy game now.

  4. #24
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    No I dont think that is the goal but I agree with the earlier point that its not clear what's trying to be accomplished, at least the public dont believe it, in more than one sense of the word and without support it cant go on indefinitely.
    Well your welcome to give an alternative speculation. But considering USA's foreign policy patterns, it is the most likely scenerio. They get nothing else out of it. Under the guise of all the formal political jargon, the motivations are fairly simple, but ulterior. Seriously you don't finance a war that costs billions and send a quarter of your military forces over peanuts like the taliban and bin laden, if not for some pay off, it's just not strategically reasonable.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  5. #25
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post
    Well your welcome to give an alternative speculation. But considering USA's foreign policy patterns, it is the most likely scenerio. They get nothing else out of it. Under the guise of all the formal political jargon, the motivations are fairly simple, but ulterior. Seriously you don't finance a war that costs billions and send a quarter of your military forces over peanuts like the taliban and bin laden, if not for some pay off, it's just not strategically reasonable.


    Listen, I can buy that the interests of the military industrial complex where at stake, that the 1% had a pay off, that it was even about establishing strategic prescence, gauging how close the world was off peak oil, even some of the stories about US concern that Iraq and neighbouring countries where planning to adopt the Euro as the petro-dollar had the US freaked but painting the US as some sort of modern day Roman or British Empire is just ridiculous.

    There would be nothing like the left-right consensus on withdrawal that there is today if that where the case, I'm sure that some of those things where factors, I'd suggest that the establishment and a good part of the US being terrified and reeling in shock and attempting to re-establish a lost sense of invulnerability where part of it too. It would also have been very important to make it clear that the capacity wasnt gone for the worlds only superpower to do thinks such as fight wars simultaneously in two different hemispheres.

    No matter how unjust you believe the world system to be so much as its being threatened with destabilisation would be enough to spark global resources wars, ethnic cleansing, genocidal campaigns and clashes between the nations who really do have imperial ambition, not simply selfish and strategic interests.

    The Chomsky narratives are alright for the class room but realistically consider the Realpolitik, the collapse of the US would not benefit ANY of us, it would have serious negative consequences for the world for a long time. There's no Pax Britannia or Pax Europa, what is the alternative, you think China or Russia would be more benign and benevolent?

    Really the anti-imperialist narratives are indulgences of the affluent liberal elites of the developed world, they wont save you from terror or endear you to the elements who want to see America and the west doomed, they also attribute a far, far greater unity of purpose to the interventions that really exists within administrations, between administrations, within the military or within or between other security agencies such as homeland security, CIA etc.

  6. #26
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    :
    Listen, I can buy that the interests of the military industrial complex where at stake, that the 1% had a pay off, that it was even about establishing strategic prescence, gauging how close the world was off peak oil, even some of the stories about US concern that Iraq and neighbouring countries where planning to adopt the Euro as the petro-dollar had the US freaked
    thats interesting i will look into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    :
    but painting the US as some sort of modern day Roman or British Empire is just ridiculous.
    You may think so, but there are lots of evidence to the contrary. There are definitely some patterns that are consistent with pursuing economical imperialism. Like Cuba, Iraq, Iran and so, tens of other examples. Why would you dismiss this premise?. While sure it might not be an exact block by block representation, but it sure does practice certain elements. You might want to wave it off as conspiracy drivel and paranoia, but it isn't, there is tons of corroborating studies on this. You don't have to go further then reading history on USA's actions around the world and compare it to the tenets of economical and strategy oriented imperialism.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    :
    There would be nothing like the left-right consensus on withdrawal that there is today if that where the case, I'm sure that some of those things where factors, I'd suggest that the establishment and a good part of the US being terrified and reeling in shock and attempting to re-establish a lost sense of invulnerability where part of it too. It would also have been very important to make it clear that the capacity wasnt gone for the worlds only superpower to do thinks such as fight wars simultaneously in two different hemispheres.
    Ok thats acceptable, but do you really think that, the repuptation factor is important?.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    :
    No matter how unjust you believe the world system to be so much as its being threatened with destabilisation would be enough to spark global resources wars, ethnic cleansing, genocidal campaigns and clashes between the nations who really do have imperial ambition, not simply selfish and strategic interests.
    In the case of Afghanistans role that doesn't make any sense. There are far better methods of solving and maintaining balance. Besides Afghanistan hardly had any global significance up until the 70's. Had it been left alone it could've turned into something much better, (at the least it would not have been so destabilized), but because of the aggresive policies of two super-powers it unneccesarily got embroiled into a needless war. And beside's the current world system will eventually blow over and implode onto everyones face, the status quo is being challenged already, wether you think the USA'S status as a superpower is the lesser of evils and balancing is not important when everything it does accelerate's this unjust systems decline. And since only a good 10-15% get a good living out of it, the rest with increasing access to information will become desillusioned. There is only so much shit you can pile on someones shoulders. And you do realize the implications of your condoning, which holds a moral facet.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    :
    The Chomsky narratives are alright for the class room but realistically consider the Realpolitik, the collapse of the US would not benefit ANY of us, it would have serious negative consequences for the world for a long time. There's no Pax Britannia or Pax Europa, what is the alternative, you think China or Russia would be more benign and benevolent?
    .
    Thats a knee-jerk assumption. But really i do not see the usefullness in USA's influence diminishing, however at the same time you have to see the point in criticizing stupid foreign policy. And in that aspect chomsky is correct. What has the USA done more then comitted clumsy acts, again and again, that do nothing but damage?.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    :
    Really the anti-imperialist narratives are indulgences of the affluent liberal elites of the developed world, they wont save you from terror or endear you to the elements who want to see America and the west doomed, they also attribute a far, far greater unity of purpose to the interventions that really exists within administrations, between administrations, within the military or within or between other security agencies such as homeland security, CIA etc.
    Yes but you have to understand that forces do not move without catalysts, and during the 60-70's all of these defined problems "war on terror" did not even have a basis to exist, neither did the "clash" of civilizations. To be honest there was no significant problems in middle-east save for the Israel-Palestine issue up until the cold war. Getting heavily involved just expanded the palate of problems. So the "rich affluent Liberals" are right in that this creates, rather then solve problems. And why would they not extensively collobrate? after all they belong to the same apparatus.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  7. #27
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Gadaafi, in the hindsight we are looking from now, it may seem ridiculous that the US chose to go through with a 9+ year war in which the public sees little to no benefit, all for going after the Taliban and Bin Laden. But we have to realize that the US did not expect a war of this length and difficulty when it went in.

    After 9/11 the government's foreign policy and national security policy shifted majorly. We knew Al Qaeda was in Afghanistan, and that the Taliban was harboring terrorists. We also knew other states would be having dubious connections to international terrorism as well. It's more likely that the US was invading Afghanistan in a show of force, a delivery on an ultimatum, intended make other potential enemy states ease up their defiance. In this purpose, with Afghanistan and Iraq, the US did see some desired responses from other states.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  8. #28
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Smile So what now?

    We are going to loose in Afghanistan and Iraq and leave a mess behind. There will be no two State solution in Palestine. And Iran will gain nuclear weapons.

    Of more importance is the rise of China which will not be peaceful as they establish their hegemony over Asia just as the USA established their hegemony over the Western Hemisphere under the Munroe Doctrine.

    Oz will continue to trade with China while building our arms in the skies and the seas.

    And we will remain allied with the USA who will seek to contain or balance the expansion of China.

  9. #29
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    We are going to loose in Afghanistan and Iraq and leave a mess behind. There will be no two State solution in Palestine. And Iran will gain nuclear weapons.

    Of more importance is the rise of China which will not be peaceful as they establish their hegemony over Asia just as the USA established their hegemony over the Western Hemisphere under the Munroe Doctrine.

    Oz will continue to trade with China while building our arms in the skies and the seas.

    And we will remain allied with the USA who will seek to contain or balance the expansion of China.
    Please stop that. We have a thread about Afghanistan, which I posted a few days ago. After several days of having the thread about Afghanistan out, you put in that^. The only relevant thing in that post is "We are going to loose in Afghanistan and Iraq and leave a mess behind." Even that isn't explained or backed up; it's not helpful or contributive to the discussion to do things like that. Out of 6 sentences, only 1 even approached relevance. That's a relevance rate of only 16.7%.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Please stop that. We have a thread about Afghanistan, which I posted a few days ago. After several days of having the thread about Afghanistan out, you put in that^. The only relevant thing in that post is "We are going to loose in Afghanistan and Iraq and leave a mess behind." Even that isn't explained or backed up; it's not helpful or contributive to the discussion to do things like that. Out of 6 sentences, only 1 even approached relevance. That's a relevance rate of only 16.7%.
    Did you not read this thread?

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