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  1. #491
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty6226 View Post
    Ugh this thread pulled me back in for funsies. I suppose religion-and I DO include atheism- is really at the end of the day a rigid classification for a **plethora** of different understandings. But since that seems to be the basis for all of my arguments lately (about everything) I will try to let that go for the moment, at least TRY, as I might be a bit too individually tied to that specific understanding. Anyways, as much as I am starting to realize that it is a bit pointless to argue religion 'beliefs' as they seem to run a bit deep for most people and are a core aspect in how they reference the world, I am not really seeing the point of bringing up the unicorns or whatever. I mean I see the point in that you are trying to make a point about restricting your views to what you understand as even approaching plausible, but... And I am sorry if I continue to offend the atheists-not really my intention, devaluing the agnostic viewpoint as some sort of wishy washy simple minded string of lets just leap at whatever is thrown and not think for ourselves at all mentaility, really doesn't seem to build up an individual 'case'- (not that you particularly need to build up a case for an individual value set-maybe?, still thinking that one through). Maybes can be just as absolute and valid as yes and no's, especially when categorized. You can only define so much, and I guess any way that you choose to define yourself is... fine, you just have to live behind it. You can have judgements-and now I am wondering if that was a judgement in and of itself-, and use them to define and judge other judgements, but no one can truly know. So yeah guess back to agnosticism vs. religion/atheism. No contradictions.
    No, atheism is not a religion.

  2. #492
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    No, atheism is not a religion.
    Perhaps, but atheists have a religion. You still have to construct a sense of meaning which, for all intents and purposes, is indistinguishable from religion since whatever meaning you construct is just as unprovable as God.
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  3. #493
    Senior Member Frosty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Perhaps, but atheists have a religion. You still have to construct a sense of meaning which, for all intents and purposes, is indistinguishable from religion since whatever meaning you construct is just as unprovable as God.
    Thank you, exactly what I was saying. Religion, is just a tool for understanding and making sense of the world around you. A tool like any other, initially structured by society and then opened to individual divergent interpretations within. While atheism might not be a 'religion' in the strictest sense, it abides by the same principles. But I think I am going to dodge out of this thread for a while, till something else comes up, because I keep having to reclarify points I have already made. (My fault absolutely, but still...). But we will see this is a fun topic.

  4. #494
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Perhaps, but atheists have a religion. You still have to construct a sense of meaning which, for all intents and purposes, is indistinguishable from religion since whatever meaning you construct is just as unprovable as God.
    No, you don't. There are plenty of people who live without a need of "meaning". Even those who do, that meaning can easily be grounded in reality and proof would either be found or a irrlevant point.
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  5. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty6226 View Post
    Thank you, exactly what I was saying. Religion, is just a tool for understanding and making sense of the world around you. A tool like any other, initially structured by society and then opened to individual divergent interpretations within. While atheism might not be a 'religion' in the strictest sense, it abides by the same principles. But I think I am going to dodge out of this thread for a while, till something else comes up, because I keep having to reclarify points I have already made. (My fault absolutely, but still...). But we will see this is a fun topic.
    I agree that religion is a tool for understanding the world. I would say it is "failed science".

    Atheism is not a religion. Atheism is not a tool for understanding the world. It is not science. It is just to not accept theology as credible. That's it. Whatever else an atheist regard as truth or part of their worldview is derived from different sources of information. I know there are a bunch of atheist meetings taking place, and that there even exist an atheist church(!). But the core principle of atheism is really nothing else than to not accept theology as truth. Simply because there is no reason to do so. Should there appear credible evidence that any religion is true, then most atheists would immediately convert to that religion. It is not likely to happen, though.
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  6. #496
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    No, you don't. There are plenty of people who live without a need of "meaning". Even those who do, that meaning can easily be grounded in reality and proof would either be found or a irrlevant point.
    Everybody lives with meaning or they don't live. It's not possible for humans to live without meaning unless you're talking about folks that are near vegetables.

    Give me an example of where meaning can be proved. I guarantee that the proof will be built upon the meaning itself. Reality is rooted in meaning and not the other way around.
    Take the weakest thing in you
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    And always hold on when you get love
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  7. #497
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Everybody lives with meaning or they don't live. It's not possible for humans to live without meaning unless you're talking about folks that are near vegetables.

    Give me an example of where meaning can be proved. I guarantee that the proof will be built upon the meaning itself. Reality is rooted in meaning and not the other way around.
    @Hard

    I should better clarify my position. I believe in an enchanted reality where significance is inherent in reality. If you are an atheist and believe in a disenchanted reality by definition you can't believe that significance can be proven because you don't believe significance exists outside of human construction.

    This isn't a slam on atheists, but rather just an explanation of what atheists believe. If you do believe that significance is inherent in reality then guess what? You're not an atheist.

    Quite frankly, as Charles Taylor has noted, it's quite a marvel that within modern disenchanted secularism people have found ways to construct meaning. Though, I would argue it has only allowed humans to subsist rather than flourish.
    Take the weakest thing in you
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  8. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Everybody lives with meaning or they don't live. It's not possible for humans to live without meaning unless you're talking about folks that are near vegetables.

    Give me an example of where meaning can be proved. I guarantee that the proof will be built upon the meaning itself. Reality is rooted in meaning and not the other way around.
    Reality is rooted in perception.

  9. #499
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starcrash View Post
    Reality is rooted in perception.
    You can believe that. I don't. But, at the very least you must recognize that within your own system of belief "proving" meaning is a silly notion.
    Take the weakest thing in you
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    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  10. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You can believe that. I don't. But, at the very least you must recognize that within your own system of belief "proving" meaning is a silly notion.
    My comment had nothing to do with meaning. I was not agreeing or disagreeing with you on that point.

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