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  1. #301
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny-Love View Post
    Someday, when you experience it too, you'll understand.
    This is extremely patronizing and holier than thou. Further, you assume he hasn't, when perhaps it has and simply interpreted his experience differently.

    You said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny-Love View Post
    It takes courage to share my spiritual experiences for fear of sounding crazy because it defies physical laws, but I do it anyway because it's my reality.
    It's not your reality, it's how you experience reality. Reality is what it is, it's static, and does not change. How you experience reality, and subsequently interpret it doesn't make your experience right or wrong automatically. As such, it's wrong to assume that his way he experiences reality is wrong, and yours is right. Much more so because you are lacking any evidence with this claim of yours.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
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  2. #302
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny-Love View Post
    That doesn't sound right. Maybe I don't understand the question.
    To an atheist, or an agnostic for that matter, the very existence of all of the world's various religions is a huge point of evidence against any of them being factually true. Especially the Abrahamic religions, which each make a hard-line exclusive claim to being the One Truth -- "I am the lord thy God, and thou shalt have no other gods."

    A believer's own faith is no doubt more true, more real, or at least more familiar than other religions. But to an atheist, all religions are like eye-witnesses who each tell the jury conflicting and equally implausible testimonies. Thus my confusion that a supposedly successful witness-to-atheists would ignore other religions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny-Love View Post
    Respectfully, I have to ask, do you understand faith and how it works? What does faith mean to you?
    Academically? I think that faith is the result of the human impulse to be part of a community, to feel like we belong something bigger than ourselves, to feel comforted in times of stress, to simply be part of an ongoing generational tradition, and/or possibly a couple of other impulses. But I also know that faith has to be felt to be truly understood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny-Love View Post
    I've never heard that. I think you may be over-thinking this!
    That is entirely possible.
    Likes LonestarCowgirl liked this post

  3. #303

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    This is extremely patronizing and holier than thou. Further, you assume he hasn't, when perhaps it has and simply interpreted his experience differently.

    You Hard said:

    It's not your reality, it's how you experience reality. Reality is what it is, it's static, and does not change. How you experience reality, and subsequently interpret it doesn't make your experience right or wrong automatically. As such, it's wrong to assume that his way he experiences reality is wrong, and yours is right. Much more so because you are lacking any evidence with this claim of yours.
    I'm not in the mood for drama tonight. You can choose to grudge up and see the worst in me or you can choose to relax and see the best in me. As far as I'm concerned, we're fellow members sharing a few thoughts on a lazy Sunday evening.

  4. #304
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny-Love View Post
    I'm not in the mood for drama tonight. You can choose to grudge up and see the worst in me or you can choose to relax and see the best in me. As far as I'm concerned, we're fellow members sharing a few thoughts on a lazy Sunday evening.
    If you, or anyone, says something that I feel is out of line, or needs to be addressed, I will speak up, and see to correct what I see as wrong. Which is exactly what I did. I couldn't care less if it's a lazy sunday evening just shooting the shit. That does not give one a free pass.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
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  5. #305

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    If you, or anyone, says something that I feel is out of line, or needs to be addressed, I will speak up. Which is exactly what I did. I couldn't care less if it's a lazy sunday evening just shooting the shit. That does not give one a free pass.
    No problem. *tiptoes out of thread*

  6. #306
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    It's not your reality, it's how you experience reality. Reality is what it is, it's static, and does not change. How you experience reality, and subsequently interpret it doesn't make your experience right or wrong automatically. As such, it's wrong to assume that his way he experiences reality is wrong, and yours is right. Much more so because you are lacking any evidence with this claim of yours.
    This presumes that reality consists entirely of those external and objective experiences that most people perceive in the same way, such as the weather, the cost of gas, or even the laws of physics. This denies the reality of people's internal experiences: the love one feels for a partner, one's likes and dislikes, and yes, even one's experience of spiritual matters. These can and do change, because the reality they concern is not static. That doesn't make it any less real.

    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post
    To an atheist, or an agnostic for that matter, the very existence of all of the world's various religions is a huge point of evidence against any of them being factually true. Especially the Abrahamic religions, which each make a hard-line exclusive claim to being the One Truth -- "I am the lord thy God, and thou shalt have no other gods."

    A believer's own faith is no doubt more true, more real, or at least more familiar than other religions. But to an atheist, all religions are like eye-witnesses who each tell the jury conflicting and equally implausible testimonies. Thus my confusion that a supposedly successful witness-to-atheists would ignore other religions.
    If you take the world's religions literally, then they are going to be at odds with each other. If you take them metaphorically, however, they all agree on some key essential points. In this respect, they argue for the existence of a God, or at least some common source for what they do have in common. (Was it Jung who called this the collective subconscious? No time to check now.)
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
    Likes LonestarCowgirl liked this post

  7. #307
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis
    (Was it Jung who called this the collective subconscious? No time to check now.)
    The notion of collective consciousness also owes a tremendous amount to the emerging popularity of psychoanalysis in the 20th century. Carl Jung coined the term collective unconscious to denote the shared contexts and meanings of individual’s dreams. According to Jung, there exists a pre-experiential set of “mythological motifs, combinations of ideas or images which can be found in the myths of one's own folk or in those of other races” which yield “a collective meaning, a meaning which is the common property of mankind” (Jung 322).
    collective consciousness

    I wasn't aware that atheists were disliked. Might it have something to do with the 80 million or so murders committed by commie atheists in Russia and China and elsewhere?
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  8. #308
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This presumes that reality consists entirely of those external and objective experiences that most people perceive in the same way, such as the weather, the cost of gas, or even the laws of physics. This denies the reality of people's internal experiences: the love one feels for a partner, one's likes and dislikes, and yes, even one's experience of spiritual matters. These can and do change, because the reality they concern is not static. That doesn't make it any less real.
    I suppose this is a fair point. I mean, in reality it's nothing more than biological reactions and what not that drive this, but that's getting really nitpicky and semantics-like that I have no interest in addressing. I get what you're saying though.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
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  9. #309
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If you take the world's religions literally, then they are going to be at odds with each other. If you take them metaphorically, however, they all agree on some key essential points. In this respect, they argue for the existence of a God, or at least some common source for what they do have in common. (Was it Jung who called this the collective subconscious? No time to check now.)
    To get nitpicky, it's the collective unconscious. And most religions have historically revolved around many gods, but yes, I get your drift.

    I do like how more and more believers seem to be treating their faiths as metaphorical aspects of some underlying spiritual source, rather than the One Truth. Less preachiness and less pointless violence. Well, the enlightened believers are; obviously there are plenty in the world who're still stuck in the my-Way-or-the-highway mindset.

    Just yesterday an evangelist decided to preach in the subway car I was in, and it was so...sad. He didn't even want to be there, and told us as much. In a flat, monotone voice he informed us that we would either go to Heaven or Hell when we died, whether we believed it or not...and on and on and on and on.

    As if anyone could possibly live in the U.S.A. and not know that old tale.

  10. #310
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I wasn't aware that atheists were disliked. Might it have something to do with the 80 million or so murders committed by commie atheists in Russia and China and elsewhere?
    The majority of Americans are far too ignorant to link atheism to Communism. One minority of people will be aware of the link but still too ignorant to realize that Communism where it reigned could not simply eradicate centuries of various religious traditions. Yet another minority will be aware of the link, but rightly consider it irrelevant. Thus, to answer your question: probably not.

    Several times, I have seen the same argument used with Nazis instead of Communists, usually by people just one random fact ahead of the first group.

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