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  1. #91
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I'm not sure that Richard Dawkins (and co.) are actually more disliked or ridiculed than Pat Robertson (and co.). Yes, both camps can be ridiculous and/or offensive (usually both). But one is advocating hatred towards people, the other hatred of ideas.

    I mean, I'm sure it's different in the bible belt and all that. But in the rest of America?

    I guess it's a good thing I don't plan on ever living there, lol
    Good point. But there is a possibly important difference. Most Americans are not getting their impression of Christianity from Robertson because most Americans are already Christian, or were raised Christian, and don't need media coverage to inform them about Christian people. They already understand that Christianity is not monolithic, because of their own upbringing and because of encounters with other Christians, many of which will be of different denominations. There is not an equal amount of personal exposure to atheism, thus it's easier to fall into the assumption that atheism is monolithic. And there aren't enough non-Dawkinsian atheists getting attention to counter that notion.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  2. #92
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Wow, I looked it up and according to (unreliable) sources, 76-77% of americans and canadians claim to be christian. That seems way too high for my experience, but I guess I'm in a rather atheistic demograph and the people I interact with reflect that (city, young, science, well-educated, above average intelligence).

    I agree that it's definitely easier to demonize an entire group that you aren't a part of, or don't even have experience with
    -end of thread-

  3. #93
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    A statement that makes very little rational sense, as you clearly link "atheists" with "that dickhead Richard Dawkins".

    I've highlighted the relevant phrasing for your benefit. You provided a false dichotomy, as you presented an argument having few competing alternatives, when in reality, many more exist.

    It's common when viewing a discussion to only see agents that occupy the polar and antarctic regions participate in the debate, but the ones nearer the equator seem never to get a foot in the door. I'm sure there are a few moderate atheists, with which people of faith can find common ground, it's just that they're never invited to the party.

    Both Pat Robertson and Richard Dawkins clearly speak only for themselves and perhaps to those who are willing affiliates.

    Unfortunately, the media often mistake a good debate as one between parties on different sides of the debate's spectrum.

    Then again chosing participants who might possibly be able to find some commonality might make for sensible but boring television. The intention is possibly to get to the "core of the argument" and is perhaps well-meaning, but the result is just more dumbing down. - As we can see from the quality of the debate here

  4. #94
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    As a matter of fact, what do you have against Richard Dawkins?

    At least, he teaches in Oxford university, and was already famous as a scientist before he became famous as an Atheist.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  5. #95
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    I don't consider Atheists as a part of "the religious". Do you?
    It's still a matter of religious intolerance. When the Soviet government was avowedly atheist and persecuted the religious, was that not religiously intolerant? Well, vice versa would be the same principle. Attacking a lack of belief is the same as attacking a different belief.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #96
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I'm not sure that Richard Dawkins (and co.) are actually more disliked or ridiculed than Pat Robertson (and co.). Yes, both camps can be ridiculous and/or offensive (usually both). But one is advocating hatred towards people, the other hatred of ideas.

    I mean, I'm sure it's different in the bible belt and all that. But in the rest of America?

    I guess it's a good thing I don't plan on ever living there, lol
    Most atheists and agnostics I know don't even like Richard Dawkins.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #97
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Most atheists and agnostics I know don't even like Richard Dawkins.
    I like him.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  8. #98
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    As a matter of fact, what do you have against Richard Dawkins?

    At least, he teaches in Oxford university, and was already famous as a scientist before he became famous as an Atheist.
    A couple quick memories:

    in an interview with Bill Maher (or however it's spelled) he came off as very conceited, disdainful, and unaccepting of facts because he said something like Francis Collins isn't a scientist and is stupid for being a theist. He's often very insulting.

    there's another documentary video i saw part of on youtube in which he makes wild generalizations and misleadingly presents things.

    He just comes off as dishonest, misleading, and smug. In a word, he's a douchebag. His arguments make big leaps and i find him to not live up to Oxford's reputation. Maybe he's better in the realm of science.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  9. #99
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SNUGGLETRON View Post
    I've rarely found anyone who has thought about their religious standpoint a bit more thoroughly than the four basic answers that are 100% down the middle or uncertain. It would appear those that have arrived at that middle position would tend to lean to either theism or atheism if they cared to proclaim their position deeper. 'maybe' is applicable, but having a total indifferent stance on religion (and politics) is either result of not getting around to defining the position further or just laziness. The desire to have reasoning and opinion are just too strong.
    I definitely disagree. I understand that to many on either side of the isle, the position seems so obvious or at least boolean that they can't accept an indefinite answer, but in general acknowledge that one does not know is not necessarily a sign of deficient analysis, but is sometimes the product of wise critical thought. One shouldn't be like my second-oldest brother, who is hampered by his inability to accept uncertainty.

    For me, explaining my stance on a "higher power" is slightly complicated by the fact that there are so many different concepts of God. The more it moves toward a transcendent, impersonal force as the concept of God, the more agnostic I am. Conversely, the more it moves toward a tangible, willful being with rather anthropmorphic sense of purpose, the more athiestic I am.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Wow, I looked it up and according to (unreliable) sources, 76-77% of americans and canadians claim to be christian. That seems way too high for my experience, but I guess I'm in a rather atheistic demograph and the people I interact with reflect that (city, young, science, well-educated, above average intelligence).

    I agree that it's definitely easier to demonize an entire group that you aren't a part of, or don't even have experience with
    If I recall, half of Americans don't even believe in evolution. International studies (I wish I could cite these things here) showed that the USA is the most religious of developed nations, and there's a good number of developing ones less religion than us too (in cases like China, they've been kind of seeing to that).

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I like him.
    Yes, but now you'll need to ask how many atheists he knows, and then calculate how many people you are, and figure out if that changes his assesment of most athiests.

    Dawkins has done very good work. No doubt he is an accomplished scientist in genetics. His involvement in sociology is shakier, however. Yes, he can be accredited with the meme, which is important, but he's still not a spectacular sociologist in my opinion. I've read some of the things he's said about religion, and they sometimes just lack a reasonable comprehension of social structure or behavior, etc.. The other problem Dawkins has is that he's not very good in interviews. He's too impatient, and too aggressive. Not only does it not make him look good, it sometimes results in him making silly mistakes of argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    To be honest I think there probably are most disliked minorities in America, I can imagine the quiz, who do you dislike more:

    1) Peadophiles
    2) Nazis
    3) Athiests

    And people opting for 3)? Really? Give me a break
    The title is misleading in that regard, but this highlights a problem with the very concept of a minority. Majorities are easier to define, their existence is less debatable. Regarding minorities, we get into weird technical questions like whether I can call myself individually a minority because I'm the only one of me in the country (that may sound childish, but it belies important quandries).
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #100
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    A couple quick memories:

    in an interview with Bill Maher (or however it's spelled) he came off as very conceited, disdainful, and unaccepting of facts because he said something like Francis Collins isn't a scientist and is stupid for being a theist. He's often very insulting.

    there's another documentary video i saw part of on youtube in which he makes wild generalizations and misleadingly presents things.

    He just comes off as dishonest, misleading, and smug. In a word, he's a douchebag. His arguments make big leaps and i find him to not live up to Oxford's reputation. Maybe he's better in the realm of science.
    So you do not like the man, morally speaking. But what do you have against his ideas, since you're speaking of dishonesty?

    He's just a man.

    Most of the time, when I met him I always thought he was simply saying simple truths theistic people just don't want to hear. He wasn't a douchebag: he was very nice, educated, and obviously very talented. But perhaps than when you face death threats every week, you can become aggressive especially in front of some biased medias.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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