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  1. #71
    Sniffles
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    Yes, traditionally celibates were held in very high regard in several societies, not just the Catholic Church.

  2. #72
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes, traditionally celibates were held in very high regard in several societies, not just the Catholic Church.
    Yes, they were politically useful - they weren't going to be stabbing head honchos in the back and trying to take their land.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Yes, they were politically useful - they weren't going to be stabbing head honchos in the back and trying to take their land.
    Considering how many sects that allowed married clergy were usually more eager to bend over backwards for earthly princes than Catholics. The Essenes were celibate, and they directly challenged Jewish authority. Shaolin monks are generally celibate, and yet they were often a thorn in the side of many Chinese emperors.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Considering how many sects that allowed married clergy were usually more eager to bend over backwards for earthly princes than Catholics. The Essenes were celibate, and they directly challenged Jewish authority. Shaolin monks are generally celibate, and yet they were often a thorn in the side of many Chinese emperors.
    So, in other words, non-establishment sects tended to be a problem. I figured that was implied from their not being part of the established authority.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    So, in other words, non-establishment sects tended to be a problem. I figured that was implied from their not being part of the established authority.
    So you've gone from celibates being useful politically, to now just talking about non-establishment sects. Which probably means you don't have an actual argument beyond being contrary.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    So you've gone from celibates being useful politically, to now just talking about non-establishment sects. Which probably means you don't have an actual argument beyond being contrary.
    Not at all - simply pointing out that you're arguing an irrelevant point, most likely so you could type this exact response, and make me look like I'm without an argument. Tricky, but you'll have to do better than that.

    The Essenes and Shaolin were tolerated because there wasn't much that could be done about them. This is in direct contrast to the Catholic priesthood and the Mandarin class of Imperial China, who were both arms of a very established power, and also consisted of "celibates" (who were often anything but - simply castrated either in fact, or in the eyes of the law).

  7. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    If you are ever home sick and channel surfing, see if you can find the religious tv channel. (EDIT: Here y'go: CatholicTV - America's Catholic Television Network)
    There is one, might be more than one. Catholic priests and nuns specifically tell you what to think about various issues. I was never so shocked in my life as to see this nun looking straight into the camera telling people what their views should be on abortion. It may not come from the pulpit, but it's definitely in the media. If you watch any religious tv, you will see it.

    In contrast to the Evangelicals, who are absolutely shocking about taking your money away from you. I watched over an hour of some guy talking about the good that could be done with your money and how it will come back to you a thousand-fold and you'll be rich, and he's asking for $1,000 "seed money" from each viewer -- and goes on to suggest you should mortgage your house and liquidate your children's college fund, it's that important. I almost called the station. Somebody's gonna come home and find grandma sold the farm to the preacher, I promise you.

    So I'm not saying any religion jerks you around more than any other, but my observation is that the Catholic church will flat out tell you what to think. And that confession and absolution have to be performed by a priest or else it doesn't count. So it causes huge pain to have to leave something you believe in but you can't believe in, something you think is necessary to your survival and nothing else will do -- as you said, Lark, it's for you like up and deciding one day to be an animal -- the link for you is stronger to the church than for many of us Protestants who are even encouraged to critique the preacher in their own minds to discern whether they are preaching right or not (shorthand, you get what I mean). And if that church doesn't suit, find one that is more comfortable. It's a Christianity that's not attached to any church, so it's completely portable.

    Anyway, so if you can get Catholics to come away from their church, you decrease the number of Catholics to supply the church's coffers, you decrease its political influence, therefore it's worthwhile to keep up the outcry over sinning priests.

    I don't see anybody going after the Mormons, who, as has been documented, threatened their flock's souls if they did not rise up financially against homosexual marriage. It was not left to individual discernment. It was couched in language that made them understand they could lose their souls.
    I'm a bit unsure how to respond to this, its clear that you think that the RC church is the only institution to provide its followers with any kind of direction and that this is some sort of totalitarian or dictatorial undertaking. If that is what you believe I'll not try to convince you otherwise but its not true.

    Maintaining that everything is a matter of individual conscience and inspiration can lead to pretty incredible and awful things, for one the kind of moral relativism which either paralyses people judgement or prevents them reaching a conclusion and making a judgement even when its patently obvious what that judgement should be and the sorts of harm which will be wrought by refusing to pass judgement at all.

    The RC church is far from the only source of guidance and direction out there, for the most part you could do a hell of a lot worse. I dont think it'd be a great idea to maintain a hue and cry against sinning priests purely to try and provoke RCs to abandon the church or migrate to other faiths in order to bankrupt the church and therefore wipe out whatever, marginal I've got to say, political influence it may have.

    That's seriously short sighted about the RC church as an institution, tradition, source of memory and spiritual guide, its crazy to suggest that simply because it can not be reconciled to popular vogues or trends that it should perish altogether. Its also pretty telling because if that is the view of the purveyors of homosexual "marriage" in the western, secular, liberal democracies then its not a lot different from the attitudes of Communists in Russia, China, North Korea and elsewhere or the fascists in their day because the church would not reconcile itself to their orthodoxies.

  8. #78
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Not at all - simply pointing out that you're arguing an irrelevant point, most likely so you could type this exact response, and make me look like I'm without an argument. Tricky, but you'll have to do better than that.
    Wow I got owned...impressive. :rolli:

    The Essenes and Shaolin were tolerated because there wasn't much that could be done about them. This is in direct contrast to the Catholic priesthood and the Mandarin class of Imperial China, who were both arms of a very established power, and also consisted of "celibates" (who were often anything but - simply castrated either in fact, or in the eyes of the law).
    Point taken on the Mandarin class, although the topic here is concerning celibacy for spiritual reasons - so politics means little in this case. We could also get into the tensions between church and state and how whenever the state wanted to assert its supremacy, the church was almost always the first target. Once the church was subordinate, the state had free reign. Of course celibacy was part of Church teachings long before this even happened, so what exact point you're trying to make here is uncertain, so I still assert you're just being contrary for contrary purposes, on top of trying to lecture me on stuff I already know(as you always do).

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Point taken on the Mandarin class, although the topic here is concerning celibacy for spiritual reasons - so politics means little in this case. We could also get into the tensions between church and state and how whenever the state wanted to assert its supremacy, the church was almost always the first target. Once the church was subordinate, the state had free reign. Of course celibacy was part of Church teachings long before this even happened, so what exact point you're trying to make here is uncertain.
    And here's the point where arguing further is going to go nowhere, because we've got irreconcilable first principles. In my mind, until at the earliest the mid 14th century, the Church was primarily a political organization, which derived its temporal power from its spiritual authority. We're just not going to agree on that, so let's end this here.

  10. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    And here's the point where arguing further is going to go nowhere, because we've got irreconcilable first principles. In my mind, until at the earliest the mid 14th century, the Church was primarily a political organization, which derived its temporal power from its spiritual authority. We're just not going to agree on that, so let's end this here.
    But what's that got to do with anything? I'm confused.

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