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  1. #51
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    In the UK the idea of Gay "marriage" has been explicitly rejected up until now without there existing RC influence or even religious influence in the matter, legalistically there has just been a clear distinction between civil partnerships and marriages, even Elton John has publically stated that he doesnt see the point in insisting upon anything different or starting a battle about it.

    If the RC church in Italy is any different from the contra opinions in the UK its not rejection so much as it can not be, it is like suggesting that a legislator pass legislation to recind gravity because people are unfaily discriminated again by having to walk on the surface of the earth.
    I don't follow.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I don't follow.
    Its a nebulous concept.

  3. #53
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm totally amazed that there remains a political dimension since I'd have thought that the divisions between the spiritual and temporal where all too clear long ago, to the point where it was complete aberrant and even heretical to advocate anything else.
    That's because this distinction is completely bunk... the temporal state has to have some sort of moral authority, or the populace will eventually reject it. That came from an established church in the past, and from "ideology" nowadays. In Europe, it's split among secular humanism, dialecticism (socialism and fascism), and traditionalism (nationalism and religion). In the US, among fundamental religion, oppression identity, Objectivism/rational selfishness, and Constitutionalism/civil religion.

    Enlightenment activists didn't separate church and state because they thought they needed to be separate, they separated them because they wished to supplant the role of the established church as the moral authority for the state.

  4. #54
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its a nebulous concept.
    I mean, the comparison between gay marriage and gravity doesn't make sense to me. Please elucidate.

  5. #55
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Don't shoot the messenger. Yes, they have an agenda. However, the bishop said what he said. Italy's the biggest country in Western Europe to explicitly reject gay marriage, and a lot of that is due to the influence of the Church in Italian politics.
    Not to mention, it took me about five seconds to dig up the source for that source. I don't speak Italian and the Google Translate is a little awkward, but it's there. Who cares if a publication called PinkPapers was the one who reported it in English? It is relevant to their interests.

    Dare la comunione ad omosessuali dichiarati e impenitenti? Non ci penso. Uno come Vendola, pietra di scandalo, lo manderei indietro. Se si celebra il funerale per i suicici e pubblici peccatori, non vedo perchè negarlo ai camorristi
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #56
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I mean, the comparison between gay marriage and gravity doesn't make sense to me. Please elucidate.
    Just because you legislate, dont make it so.

    Its interesting because going by what you said about the need for a moral authority and the enlightenment seperation of church and state, if the state starts to appear less moral and people turn to the church instead as the moral authority but the church is modern and secular in the sense that they do not confuse canon law or laws abided by believers with statute law or that governing non-believers which is then the authority in the state?

  7. #57
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Just because you legislate, dont make it so.

    Its interesting because going by what you said about the need for a moral authority and the enlightenment seperation of church and state, if the state starts to appear less moral and people turn to the church instead as the moral authority but the church is modern and secular in the sense that they do not confuse canon law or laws abided by believers with statute law or that governing non-believers which is then the authority in the state?
    Marriage is an institution. We decide what it is. You may not believe that to be true, but it is functionally true.

    They generally don't turn to the Church for the reasons you mention. Ideology takes over.

  8. #58
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    There are more people who have infiltrated the church for the wrong reasons, which could be why this is news, just as people I think would have a right to be concerned about predators insinuating themselves into positions of power and trust in the community to carry on I reckon parishoners would have right to be concerned about it becoming some big gay underground.
    "Infiltrated the church?" Do you really mean "infiltrate" as in "enter or gain access to (an organization, place, etc.) surreptitiously and gradually, esp. in order to acquire secret information?" I've always assumed that many gay men become priests for the normal reasons, although no doubt some are trying to escape their sexuality. I would be surprised if many were consciously trying to "infiltrate." I would also assume that, like their straight brethren, not all of them are able to keep their vow of chastity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm unsure about this, what political involvement?

    I dont know of any RC political involvement besides opposing abortion, in the ROI they where once able to oppose even contraception and condoms, although most street level RCs have turned that on its head by now considering those things positive means of avoiding abortion and STDs, although the church is clear that's not the case.
    There's some solid evidence that the Mormons and Catholics coordinated to help get Proposition 8 (which revoked gay marriage in California) passed:


    Quote Originally Posted by L.A.Times
    Documents unveiled later revealed the Catholic and Mormon churches played a major role in passing Proposition 8.

    An e-mail from the executive director of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops to the bishops and a cardinal said Catholics were crucial in providing money and volunteers to qualify Proposition 8 for the ballot.

    The e-mail also praised the Mormon Church, saying it had provided "financial, organizational and management contributions" for the measure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Political Catholicism is dead, dead as a do-do, if it ever existed outside the minds of those politicos who wanted to see the protestant ascendency succeed (if you dont believe this you should read the CIA fact book about the IRA or liberation theology, those guys took each seriously as propagators of political catholicism, just as they now are on the hunt for political islamists).
    Or for example, being involved in organizing an anti-gay marriage protest in Argentina, or making ultimatums in DC about having to stop providing sevices if same sex marriage passes.

    So I certainly agree that although the Catholic church doesn't have direct political control, it seems to be reasonably active politically on issues it sees as important.

  9. #59
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    The problem for me is that I believe it's true that Catholics and Mormons believe that there are people more holy than themselves who actually speak God's will to them. Prophets, priests, what-have-you. So if either of those churches tells its members to vote a certain way or to throw their money into a certain cause, it's more likely to happen than if you tell any hard-head Protestant that, because we (I was raised a Protestant) do not believe anyone has any better access to God than anybody else on earth. We don't accept papal authority or anybody else's. It's not in the least uncommon for a Protestant to decide that the church he's presently going to is doctrinally incorrect or holds/promotes beliefs the person does not himself hold with, and they just walk across the street and go to another church.

    So if you demonize Protestants, it doesn't make that much difference to Protestants in how they vote.

    But if you demonize Catholic priests, it seems to me (I say with respect and possible ignorance begging the pardon of any Catholics on board who should feel free to correct me), you hurt their faith in God, because they believe that priests are the only ones who can absolve them of their sins. (Protestants believe if you want to be absolved of your sin, you yourself talk to God about it.) This leaves the poor Catholics wandering lost and I think it's hateful to people who are trying to hold to their faith.

    But I think it's understandable that the secular public wants to out the unholiness of the people who supposedly have the direct route to god and the power to forgive sin (thus preserving your soul), because that power is so misused by the church telling people what to do and where to put their money and who to vote for.

  10. #60
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    ...power is so misused by the church telling people what to do and where to put their money and who to vote for.
    In fairness I think it is important to say that today the Roman Catholic Church teaches and practises the doctrine of the Separation of the Church and State.

    Of course this has not always been the case but today the Roman Catholic Church teaches and practises Freedom of Religion, the Separation of Church and State and accepts Liberal Democracy.

    I think it is very important to say that, when Liberal Democracy, the Separation of Mosque and State and the Freedom of Religion are under violent attack and propaganda attack, the Roman Catholic Church is on our side.

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