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  1. #41
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    I'm saying that it really doesn't matter which denominations stress the penalties for homosexuality or other sexual misconducts the harshest, because it's still flat-out wrong across the board to any of these churches. You're speaking like it's trivial for this to be mentioned because the catholic church doesn't even seem to take such an aggressive stance on the subject, as compared to other conservative protestant groups. The Catholic church is perceived as the most vocal and political denomination in Christianity, and that's not within the U.S. but the world as a whole. That is why this is a news story.
    There's a difference between questioning WHY this IS a news story, which is of course all about perceptions, because the perceptions of the news-consuming public are what matters when selling stories; and WHETHER it SHOULD be, which is to say, whether the subject of sexual shennanigans in the Catholic church is so intrinsically newsworthy that something is achieved by the amount of attention paid to them. Particularly homosexual behaviour, when heterosexual misconduct by priests seems equally common, yet recieves only a fraction of the attention.

    The rather extreme pronouncements of the Italian bishop may go some way towards explaining why the issue is such a political hot potato over there though, particularly if his views are 1) Sanctioned by the heirarchy 2) Recieving a lot of coverage there and 3) Widespread among the Italian clergy. I'll have to plead ignorance on these points at present however.
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

  2. #42
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    ROTFL @ the church. We should invade the Vatican.
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  3. #43
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    when heterosexual misconduct by priests seems equally common, yet recieves only a fraction of the attention.
    Is this hearsay or presumption or what BTW?

    I've known heterosexuals who took holy orders but then renounced their vocations when they found people they wanted to marry or who wanted to marry them, I've known of one couple which where a priest and nun but I only know of one big media story in ireland of a guy who was a priest, remained a priest, had a long standing relationship and a son.

    There are more people who have infiltrated the church for the wrong reasons, which could be why this is news, just as people I think would have a right to be concerned about predators insinuating themselves into positions of power and trust in the community to carry on I reckon parishoners would have right to be concerned about it becoming some big gay underground.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    It's because the Church takes such a prominent political position on the subject. Plenty of other denominations oppose homosexual behavior. Few are as vocal about it as Rome is.
    I'd be interested to know what the political position on the subject is because its not come to my attention, I went to university with a guy who was slightly mad and went on a personal journey from fundamentalist roman catholicism to neo-fascism, he was the only guy who I heard express an opinion on homosexuality and roman catholicism and he stated that while the church condemned homosexual acts/behaviour it did not condemn homosexuality per se.

    Mind you he also made the point that the church would condemn anal sex between a man and a woman and other sexual behaviour not deamed to conform to natural law, even some forms of recreational sex.

    Although you have to look into some pretty bizarre quarters to find either clergy or parishioners who still believe that sex per se is sinful carnality or that celibacy should be a norm between married heterosexuals.

    The position of the RC church contra that of the Anglicans I believe that women priests where a bigger issue than married ones because they admitted to the RC church many married Anglican priests, some with families, I dont know whether they where given dispensations or what the deal was, some people thought it could herald a rethink of marriage and celibacy.

    I know some Jesuits wanted an open debate about it, suggesting that certain ranks should be debarred to the married but marriage need not necessarily be prohibited or that celibacy should be incorporated as a probationary period to test vocations.

    Mind you most of them which had an open dialogue on it where also able to make persuasive cases for its retention, the Church is a spiritual agency, that is its mission and that can be contra carnality and temptation, also wives, mistresses or families and dependents can act as powerful disausive factors in ministry of a particular kind, remember some of the orders in the church where originally military and retain that character.

    I can think of many Christian churches and congregations which are bitterly anti-homosexual, much more vocal, much more political too, in the US particularly. The attitude of the RC church to homosexuality is I think fair, I also think it takes a much, much longer view and is influenced by the memory of a time when homosexuality was not en vogue, was not a hot political topic nor even one everyone would be expected to have an opinion on, in short it was an irrelevence.

    I'll be honest too that I think the RC church is one of the few agencies too which today has a realistic view about sex too, its not as available as most other sources of opinion portray it, the belief that it is or should be, or is a short cuircit to blissful happiness, has contributed to a hell of a lot of misery.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Check out the source of this story.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    The Catholic church is seen as the world's main authority on social issues relating to the gospel and they are most definitely not accepting of homosexuality.
    Is it?



    You gone and done it now, you just provoked the "protestant ascendency"!!

    You know as a practicing RC I'm not as bold in pronouncements about the RC churches positions on these topics as a lot of others appear to be.

    At least not since I discovered while resisting protestant evangelists that the RC church had gone behind my back and released a consensus document with the Lutherans essentially conceeding that Luther was correct. Probably an even bigger WTF moment for me than the 1989 "death of socialism".

  7. #47
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Check out the source of this story.
    Don't shoot the messenger. Yes, they have an agenda. However, the bishop said what he said. Italy's the biggest country in Western Europe to explicitly reject gay marriage, and a lot of that is due to the influence of the Church in Italian politics.

  8. #48
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Can Lark learn how to use multiquote? It suggests some degree of competency, which is sadly not in evidence. Still.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    The issue here is that it relates less to the Church's role as a spiritual community, and more to its historical role as a political organization (which it still remains in Italy, to a large extent). This sort of criticism happens as much as it does in the West because of the nature of religious organizations' political involvement.

    Catholics and Evangelicals are generally the ones eviscerated in the American press for their salacious and hypocritical behavior, compared to say Methodists or Presbyterians. Part of this is due to the large size of these churches... but the bigger reason for this is their loud voices in the political arena. Once you're in that world, someone's always trying to take you out. I'd imagine it's much the same in Europe.
    I'm unsure about this, what political involvement?

    I dont know of any RC political involvement besides opposing abortion, in the ROI they where once able to oppose even contraception and condoms, although most street level RCs have turned that on its head by now considering those things positive means of avoiding abortion and STDs, although the church is clear that's not the case.

    Political Catholicism is dead, dead as a do-do, if it ever existed outside the minds of those politicos who wanted to see the protestant ascendency succeed (if you dont believe this you should read the CIA fact book about the IRA or liberation theology, those guys took each seriously as propagators of political catholicism, just as they now are on the hunt for political islamists).

    I'm totally amazed that there remains a political dimension since I'd have thought that the divisions between the spiritual and temporal where all too clear long ago, to the point where it was complete aberrant and even heretical to advocate anything else.

    Interesting to see that there's some sort of division between Christians in the US, presbyterians, methodists and RCs (I'll level with you admit I dont understand or know enough about presbyterians and methodists, any time I've thought I've formed an opinion I'm generally proven wrong, I original imagined that the schismatics such as these split over church governance, sacramentalism and tradition vs. solo scriptura but I've been told there's more to it, even between themselves).

    In Europe or the UK its an aggressive athiesm and secularism vs. all faith of any sort to be honest. In Europe I wouldnt consider it the norm to believe in a God, afterlife and religious observance.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Don't shoot the messenger. Yes, they have an agenda. However, the bishop said what he said. Italy's the biggest country in Western Europe to explicitly reject gay marriage, and a lot of that is due to the influence of the Church in Italian politics.
    In the UK the idea of Gay "marriage" has been explicitly rejected up until now without there existing RC influence or even religious influence in the matter, legalistically there has just been a clear distinction between civil partnerships and marriages, even Elton John has publically stated that he doesnt see the point in insisting upon anything different or starting a battle about it.

    If the RC church in Italy is any different from the contra opinions in the UK its not rejection so much as it can not be, it is like suggesting that a legislator pass legislation to recind gravity because people are unfaily discriminated again by having to walk on the surface of the earth.

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