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  1. #21
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Lol, Anglicanism may have a lot of features in common with Catholicism at a theological level, but nevertheless I don't think personal sexual preferences are a particularly significant reason for the clergy to convert between the two churches, either way...
    Yeah. That's right.

    This bugs me because I've considered at one time or another joining different religious orders within the church, the Jesuits or Franciscans, the reason I dont is that I KNOW that I couldnt keep all the pledges taken as part of the ordination process, perhaps not just the celibacy one, the obedience one I could imagine in some contexts being very difficult to abide by.

    So it aggrieves me when I hear of stuff like this, I think the scandal is not in their conduct and sexual preferences but their blatant disregard for their bidding promises. If it didnt matter or if you cant keep it why are you still in that position with in the community? I mean if you where a Dr. and kept killing people you'd either have an attack of conscience or people would put you out of that position in the community.

    I also hate to hear about it because it is ALWAYS used as a vindication of the normativeness of promiscuity, licentiousness and vice. To me, its like crabs in a barrel, the minute one moves to get out the others grab them and pull them back in.

    So here you have a social agency which hasnt simply suggested that it is possible, that it may even be a good thing, a virtue, to resist temptation, to master yourself but has tried to institutionalise that notion and make it normative within its ranks and all it is met with is disdain, open attack and rejoycing over any failure to meet with their stated objectives that make the record.

    What bothers me is the implicit idea that its never a case of "Ha! You're human, all too human!", which in the very least acknowledges something about what is being attempted, even but "You shouldnt even try, trying isnt natural". It really makes me question the extent to which ideas about honour or aspiration goods or virtues exist at all any longer.

    Its also something I see as unique to the western world and in the west we do it to our secular authorities and celebrities (although I dont like celebrity culture and they are known for milking scandal), I dont see the followers of buddhism etc. reveling in the failings of their religious castes or vocations.

  2. #22
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    Is there a point here?
    What do you mean? It's a current event.

  3. #23
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Where's Peguy?
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Where's Peguy?
    I was thinking that too.

  5. #25
    your resident asshole
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    As long as it's consenting adults I don't really care...
    +1

  6. #26
    Senior Member Chunes's Avatar
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    I fail to see the problem here.. what scandal?
    "If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. But do not care to convince him. Men will believe what they see. Let them see."
    Thoreau

  7. #27
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah. That's right.

    This bugs me because I've considered at one time or another joining different religious orders within the church, the Jesuits or Franciscans, the reason I dont is that I KNOW that I couldnt keep all the pledges taken as part of the ordination process, perhaps not just the celibacy one, the obedience one I could imagine in some contexts being very difficult to abide by.

    So it aggrieves me when I hear of stuff like this, I think the scandal is not in their conduct and sexual preferences but their blatant disregard for their bidding promises. If it didnt matter or if you cant keep it why are you still in that position with in the community? I mean if you where a Dr. and kept killing people you'd either have an attack of conscience or people would put you out of that position in the community.

    I also hate to hear about it because it is ALWAYS used as a vindication of the normativeness of promiscuity, licentiousness and vice. To me, its like crabs in a barrel, the minute one moves to get out the others grab them and pull them back in.

    So here you have a social agency which hasnt simply suggested that it is possible, that it may even be a good thing, a virtue, to resist temptation, to master yourself but has tried to institutionalise that notion and make it normative within its ranks and all it is met with is disdain, open attack and rejoycing over any failure to meet with their stated objectives that make the record.

    What bothers me is the implicit idea that its never a case of "Ha! You're human, all too human!", which in the very least acknowledges something about what is being attempted, even but "You shouldnt even try, trying isnt natural". It really makes me question the extent to which ideas about honour or aspiration goods or virtues exist at all any longer.

    Its also something I see as unique to the western world and in the west we do it to our secular authorities and celebrities (although I dont like celebrity culture and they are known for milking scandal), I dont see the followers of buddhism etc. reveling in the failings of their religious castes or vocations.
    The issue here is that it relates less to the Church's role as a spiritual community, and more to its historical role as a political organization (which it still remains in Italy, to a large extent). This sort of criticism happens as much as it does in the West because of the nature of religious organizations' political involvement.

    Catholics and Evangelicals are generally the ones eviscerated in the American press for their salacious and hypocritical behavior, compared to say Methodists or Presbyterians. Part of this is due to the large size of these churches... but the bigger reason for this is their loud voices in the political arena. Once you're in that world, someone's always trying to take you out. I'd imagine it's much the same in Europe.

  8. #28
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chunes View Post
    I fail to see the problem here.. what scandal?
    Taken from an online dictionary: "A publicized incident that brings about disgrace or offends the moral sensibilities of society"

    If this were Joe Schmo, it really wouldn't matter; you're right. It's not though... It's a member of clergy, who has made vows to abstain from these behaviors and also guide and instruct others to do the same. It's hypocrisy at its finest, and these people should be held accountable. It just so happens that this is only one story of quite a few that have surfaced over recent years within the Catholic church.

  9. #29
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    I think people are just trying to find something to stigmatize.

  10. #30
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    I think people are just trying to find something to stigmatize.
    There is definitely a bit of that going on.

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