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  1. #131
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Priest comment - probably better understood as "why would you want to be celibate?" This is a sex-addled society, you know.

    The largest Protestant grouping in the US is "evangelical", which is slightly less than the Catholic population... and anytime an evangelical leader gets hit with some sort of lurid scandal, that leader is usually excoriated in the media for it.

    If there's any difference, it's that the Catholic Church is a huge monolithic organization, with a clear hierarchy and chain of command, while evangelical churches are loosely associated and generally independent of one another on an operations level. In the latter circumstance, the bad behavior of one pastor does not necessarily say anything about the other churches. However, because of the way the Catholic Church is set up, when such behavior isn't swiftly dealt with by higher authorities within the hierarchy, and evidence arises that the behavior was tolerated to some extent, then you have not solely a localized problem. It's easy at that point to wonder if the issue is an institutional one.
    The priest comment was specifically about being a Catholic priest. Walters is not in the habit of questioning other secular celibates.

    The RCC is hardly monolithic, for starters. You must be joking about that.
    The absence or presence of chain of command, which really isn't absolutely top-to-bottom military style as some think, is not a good reason to exclude certain sects from the grilling. The media criticisms about the RCC in this respect are not that there are bishops and cardinals. Anglicans also have bishops, yet they are not scrutinized. If the media really wants to make fair and honest criticisms then it should state that all denominations have problems of sexual misconduct, instead of taking the opportunity to use the sex scandals to deride Church traditions and treating the pope unfairly. By applying media logic to the sexual misconducts of Protestant or Orthodox churches, we are forced to conclude that there is something wrong with their structures or practices, like married clergy, yet we see this to be absurd when considered.

    Again, the things you are saying aren't disproving the prevalence of RCC-attacking in the media.

    Also, "evangelical" is not a denomination. It's just another grouping the media doesn't like because of their politics.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  2. #132
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    My priest and her husband seem to do fine on the income of an Episcopal priest, in part because it's combined with that of an English professor (though he is now retired).
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  3. #133
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well to be honest it is a bit of a simplification, he talked about having or keeping a sex life in perspective, that in most marriages or relationships its not simply available or on tap and about competing demands of work and other goals in life.
    This is true. I know people who mostly do see marriage as just a way to have [more] sex. They don't see the other positive aspects of marriage. When you reduce it to such logical terms, then yeah, I would say that those people probably should not get married.
    He talked about how nothing like the priesthood would afford just so much time for personal and spiritual development, travel, experiencing other cultures, all that. The remarkable thing about it too is that he told me not to consider the priesthood, not until later in life, he said that if I was through my thirties and hadnt a family or other priorities to get back in touch.
    How odd. Maybe he thought your reasons or intentions for joining were not completely where they should be? Just a thought.

    I agree that they should consider their vocation before they join the clergy and if the vows of celibacy, poverty and obedience then dont get ordained. There's ways to serve the church other than in the priesthood, even if you think that its a mess it doesnt mean you will put it right by personally volunteering for that role either.
    This is true. You can give it a good effort though.
    I dont see how anyone could support a wife and kids on the subsistence allowance that monks and priests get, I dont know if its fair to expect or ask them to, even if you're in love. Realistically too I think that the vow of obedience places priests in the same position as soldiers and their families would have the same experiences as army wives and children.
    The wife could always work too? Is that not allowed in the church? But you do make a good point. I think this is why many don't get married and priest/nuns/monks live together to reduce costs. The pressure of having to support a family would possibly distract from their spiritual goals/endeavors.

    I've just no idea how it all works out in the congregations which allow for marriage and families but there must be systems of virtually taxing the followers or something.
    It's called Tithing. lol The word "Tithe", meaning that congregation members donate 10% of their income to the church to help out.

  4. #134
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Observations following a brief Googling: Abuse is probably about as common in all faith groups, but not all faith groups respond with systematic cover-ups. But some of the more organized churches also have systematic abuse scandals that rival that of the Catholic church. Other churches that have systematic abuse scandals include the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

    The Mormons IME have a worse reputation for oppression and abuse than the Catholic church does. Who thinks of Mormons without thinking next of child brides, and a whole bunch of them? But the LDS church actually took a stand against polygamy and underage marriage, and those who practice them are no longer a part of the organized church- they're in their own, independent offshoots that have little or no organizational oversight. That would be like if the Catholic church actually excommunicated priests who diddle children instead of just transferring them, and those priests went off and formed their own churches without oversight.

    In the Jehovah's Witness church two witnesses are required if there is no confession, so most of the time what happens is the child says something happened and the elder says "no it didn't," and that's the end of it. IF abuse can be proven, the elder is excommunicated, but if he pleads repentance he can be brought back in or transferred elsewhere. They only alert the civil authorities in areas where it's required by law for them to do so.

    It's all pretty disgusting, IMO. That it happens in other organizations does not make the Catholic problem any better to me.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  5. #135
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    On the whole issue of cover ups, in the ROI instance at least, the civil/secular authorities where generally involved too, sometimes took the lead in "handling" the situation but they havent come in for just as much of a (justified) attack as the RCC.

    Some of the actions which the Church took where, to be honest, based upon ancient practices and naivette too, a lot of this was known to the hierarchy not because they had investigated people or received complaints but because priests revealed it in confession, the confessional is sacrosanct and people have a big problem with that.

    Moving priests between parishes obviously didnt work and they seriously mistook the capacity for recidivism of some of these people, and, I'll be honest, I think they mistook the redemptive powers of confession and prayer alone in remedying this kind of pattern of behaviour.

    There also wasnt any communication between parishes, either of the congregations, not anything like the oversight which was necessary from the hierarchy, these arent just problems for the church they are problems for civil authorities supervising peadophiles or wife beaters or others when they move between districts or even houses in a single town.

    There was also, this will surprise some people too, a degree of assumption on the parts of some sections of hierarchy that the populations of places they moved priests to would be protective or "steely" to resist any possible clerical abuse, ie "they wouldnt think of behaving like that in such and such a place, they'd get a good hidding".

    Like I say a lot of this is antiquated and wrong headed but its not exclusive or unique to the RCC and to be honest the issues of abuse and corruption, not simply in churches, are as old as the hills, anyone finds a solution the world will be thankful.

  6. #136
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    On the whole issue of cover ups, in the ROI instance at least, the civil/secular authorities where generally involved too, sometimes took the lead in "handling" the situation but they havent come in for just as much of a (justified) attack as the RCC.

    Some of the actions which the Church took where, to be honest, based upon ancient practices and naivette too, a lot of this was known to the hierarchy not because they had investigated people or received complaints but because priests revealed it in confession, the confessional is sacrosanct and people have a big problem with that.

    Moving priests between parishes obviously didnt work and they seriously mistook the capacity for recidivism of some of these people, and, I'll be honest, I think they mistook the redemptive powers of confession and prayer alone in remedying this kind of pattern of behaviour.

    There also wasnt any communication between parishes, either of the congregations, not anything like the oversight which was necessary from the hierarchy, these arent just problems for the church they are problems for civil authorities supervising peadophiles or wife beaters or others when they move between districts or even houses in a single town.

    There was also, this will surprise some people too, a degree of assumption on the parts of some sections of hierarchy that the populations of places they moved priests to would be protective or "steely" to resist any possible clerical abuse, ie "they wouldnt think of behaving like that in such and such a place, they'd get a good hidding".

    Like I say a lot of this is antiquated and wrong headed but its not exclusive or unique to the RCC and to be honest the issues of abuse and corruption, not simply in churches, are as old as the hills, anyone finds a solution the world will be thankful.
    I also read somewhere that the clergy brought the abusing priests to psychologists for therapy, and at this time people thought pedophilia could be cured through such treatment. So then the bishops reassigned the priests only after the therapists said they had "improved." This was a long time ago i read this and i'm not sure if it's true.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  7. #137
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    I also read somewhere that the clergy brought the abusing priests to psychologists for therapy, and at this time people thought pedophilia could be cured through such treatment. So then the bishops reassigned the priests only after the therapists said they had "improved." This was a long time ago i read this and i'm not sure if it's true.
    See this is it too, there has been a similar history with supervision orders and therapy in the UK, the secular authorities have underestimated the recidivism of these sorts of offenders too.

    I think about the only place which has succeeded has been a state in the US which has a massive walled town facility and hands out indefinite detention for treatment writs, some lasting more than twenty years. For the straight foward objective of protecting others from victimisation (and the offenders themselves from summary justice in the community, lets be honest) it works.

  8. #138
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  9. #139
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    Thumbs down Sex, Power and Corruption

    This is very naive for child rape and torture is not about sex but about power.

    For there is no greater power than to be able to rape and torture a child and get away with it, protected by a powerful international institution.

    Also the power to protect and help the child rapists and torturers enhances the power of the institution.

    Naturally this powerful institution and its supporters keep saying child rape and torture is about sex as a way of distracting our attention from their main lust, which is power.

    And they have absolutely no intention of giving up power.

    And as we know, power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

  10. #140
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    This is very naive for child rape and torture is not about sex but about power.

    For there is no greater power than to be able to rape and torture a child and get away with it, protected by a powerful international institution.

    Also the power to protect and help the child rapists and torturers enhances the power of the institution.

    Naturally this powerful institution and its supporters keep saying child rape and torture is about sex as a way of distracting our attention from their main lust, which is power.

    And they have absolutely no intention of giving up power.

    And as we know, power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    Pedophiles seek out postitions of authority to make their crimes easier to commit. It's not the power that is the root problem, because pedophiles are pedophiles before they are given a collar.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

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