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  1. #121
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    When I was 8 years old, I went to a non-denominational Bible camp over the Summer.

    There was only one phone on the property, and there were no available electronics. The cabins were pocked and separated, boys according to boys and girls according to girls. Every cabin had counselors who were around college age.

    One night, things got very bizarre. The counselors in my cabin started mooning each other for some reason. They were being crass. Suddenly, one of them pulled out his penis and put it through a piece of cardboard, which had a prepared circle cut in it. Then another counselor produced a disposable camera and started taking pictures of the penis. They were both laughing hysterically. Afterward, the guy taking photographs showed some of the children his singular ball. (I didn't see it, but damn I wish I was making this up).

    The next day, I informed one of the more pontificated counselors after crying myself to sleep the previous night.

    Everyone who participated in those events was expelled from their respective colleges and expelled from the camp. Every one of them had a girlfriend, and none of them were sexually repressed other than the fact they were staying in a boys dorm.

    It was really weird. Not sure if it can be considered abuse, but it was weird.

  2. #122
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Why wouldn't you think he is serious?
    When Stalin was warned that attacking the RC Church was taking on a powerful organisation he laughed and said "The Pope? How many battalions has he?".

    I agree with that insight.

  3. #123
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I don't know why you think there is an underlying assumption that "sex is available, inconsequential, always fun and a positive good." I don't agree with this statement at all. I simply said that it is unnatural to deny a person sex because as humans, we have biological urges to reproduce, and this attempts to squash a very basic human desire. I can think of little good coming from this particular rule. I guess that I would value the ability of a priest to inspire, motivate, and guide their congregation. To take away something so normal to the human condition would not seem to make them any more in tune with those in their congregation. It perhaps could even lead one to live in an ivory tower.
    I dont understand how suggesting celibacy is not natural can not be associated with the view that sexual activity is natural, if its natural and you are not engaging in it then therefore you're unnatural.

    This isnt leaps and bounds of logic here, I once talked to a priest and asked him how he handled celibacy and he responded by asking how much sex I'd had as a single guy with no partner whose not seeking any partner, it was an interesting counterpoint I'd not expected him to make.

  4. #124
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    When I was 8 years old, I went to a non-denominational Bible camp over the Summer.

    There was only one phone on the property, and there were no available electronics. The cabins were pocked and separated, boys according to boys and girls according to girls. Every cabin had counselors who were around college age.

    One night, things got very bizarre. The counselors in my cabin started mooning each other for some reason. They were being crass. Suddenly, one of them pulled out his penis and put it through a piece of cardboard, which had a prepared circle cut in it. Then another counselor produced a disposable camera and started taking pictures of the penis. They were both laughing hysterically. Afterward, the guy taking photographs showed some of the children his singular ball. (I didn't see it, but damn I wish I was making this up).

    The next day, I informed one of the more pontificated counselors after crying myself to sleep the previous night.

    Everyone who participated in those events was expelled from their respective colleges and expelled from the camp. Every one of them had a girlfriend, and none of them were sexually repressed other than the fact they were staying in a boys dorm.

    It was really weird. Not sure if it can be considered abuse, but it was weird.
    Well I can safely say that if that was reported to the social services they'd be investigating it, if there where complaints from children or their parents the same people could face conviction and other penalities besides.

    I know that's going to seem like an over reaction to some and it would all depend on how it was handled and the assessments of the individual professionals involved but you dont know the psychology of every single child and every one of those involved in that and whether it was something much more sinister than something down right stupid.

    The fact you've described it as weird and disconcerting makes me think it was right that it was reported first of all and that action was taken second of all.

    I also think you make a good point that it couldnt be attributed to repression or celibacy, I tend to think those excuses are deployed too often by people just barely familiar with really old psycho-sexual theories which are pretty much only worthy as literary curios now.

  5. #125
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Which are...
    Just for example, and there are plenty more like this:

    Opinion - UK media hostility to Pope is staggering - CathNews

    You can't rightly think all the press coverage on the sex scandals is designed for an unbiased offering of advice to the RCC of how to make them better. Look at the New York Times to find sundry sources using the scandal coverage to call unjustly for abolition of Church traditions.

    In another incident, a Jesuit Father James Martin, a liberal I don't even care for but one of my priests nonetheless, was doing some kind of interview or story with Barabara Walters on abc. Walters made an off-screen comment something to the effect of "You're a smart man, why would want to become a priest?"

    Media coverage of the scandal is hardly innocent criticism. Also take into consideration all the articles and links Peguy posted about sexual misconduct in other denominations--and yet the media is silent. There are more Protestants than Catholics in the US, if the media is in the honest and fair criticism business, then why wouldn't it want to correct the sexual misconduct of all the churches, not just the minority (in the US) Catholic Church?
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  6. #126
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    This isnt leaps and bounds of logic here, I once talked to a priest and asked him how he handled celibacy and he responded by asking how much sex I'd had as a single guy with no partner whose not seeking any partner, it was an interesting counterpoint I'd not expected him to make.
    That is an interesting counterpoint, and one that, I have considered in the past as one (just one) reason why some people join the clergy. Thank you for confirming that.

    Given that, I can see how Priests/Monks not being allowed to marry is a good and desirable thing. If one does not want to willingly sacrifice marriage, sex, and reproduction, then one should simply not become a Priest or Monk.

  7. #127
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Just for example, and there are plenty more like this:

    Opinion - UK media hostility to Pope is staggering - CathNews

    You can't rightly think all the press coverage on the sex scandals is designed for an unbiased offering of advice to the RCC of how to make them better. Look at the New York Times to find sundry sources using the scandal coverage to call unjustly for abolition of Church traditions.

    In another incident, a Jesuit Father James Martin, a liberal I don't even care for but one of my priests nonetheless, was doing some kind of interview or story with Barabara Walters on abc. Walters made an off-screen comment something to the effect of "You're a smart man, why would want to become a priest?"

    Media coverage of the scandal is hardly innocent criticism. Also take into consideration all the articles and links Peguy posted about sexual misconduct in other denominations--and yet the media is silent. There are more Protestants than Catholics in the US, if the media is in the honest and fair criticism business, then why wouldn't it want to correct the sexual misconduct of all the churches, not just the minority (in the US) Catholic Church?
    Priest comment - probably better understood as "why would you want to be celibate?" This is a sex-addled society, you know.

    The largest Protestant grouping in the US is "evangelical", which is slightly less than the Catholic population... and anytime an evangelical leader gets hit with some sort of lurid scandal, that leader is usually excoriated in the media for it.

    If there's any difference, it's that the Catholic Church is a huge monolithic organization, with a clear hierarchy and chain of command, while evangelical churches are loosely associated and generally independent of one another on an operations level. In the latter circumstance, the bad behavior of one pastor does not necessarily say anything about the other churches. However, because of the way the Catholic Church is set up, when such behavior isn't swiftly dealt with by higher authorities within the hierarchy, and evidence arises that the behavior was tolerated to some extent, then you have not solely a localized problem. It's easy at that point to wonder if the issue is an institutional one.

  8. #128
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Media coverage of the scandal is hardly innocent criticism.
    I've got to say that I agree with that. Most of the time. I reckon that the majority of journalism now is about entertainment and reporting politics, religion or scandal reflects something like sports writing.

    Although I think the RCC is screwed in a lot of ways, the liberals, left and right, see it as a moral enemy, the straightforward/economic left see it as propping up capitalism and the right wing see it as opposing it.

    I seriously thought a backlash would come after the ninties when old school marxists like Eric Hobsbawn in the UK started to talk about the Papacy being the last remaining source of anti-capitalism in the world, I thought, shit, the guys who drove the USSR broke will do it to the RCC too if you keep up that talk.

    Its got no political friends what so ever, this is why I tend to laugh at the idea that its powerful, its a piraha and it congregations are shrinking to the very young, ie pupils in RC schools, and the very old.

    Here in Ireland there's been some really strange media coverage of responses to the child abuse scandals in the form of press conferences where members of the hierarchy where talking about restructuring the RCC in Ireland, its the use of the scandals to attack traditions you've talked about Take Five.

    I was surprised because the democratic, laity controlled structure they where talking about was akin to something from protestant congregations and not the schismatic established churches either but presbytarians and others. I was shocked.

  9. #129
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I think the difference between the Protestant and Catholic stuff is the systematic and organization-wide cover-ups. There's no overarching "Protestant Church," and most denominations have far less oversight of individual congregations than does the Catholic church. I am in no way excusing the abusers in those churches- I grew up in a Protestant church that, although there was no physical or sexual abuse to my knowledge, there was some pretty heavy emotional abuse. There's no organization, no hierarchy above the individual church to hold the assholes who did it accountable. Likewise, there was no organization or hierarchy to systematically cover it up, either, and nobody was transferred to another area to abuse others. IMO, that would have compounded the original abuse many times over.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    That is an interesting counterpoint, and one that, I have considered in the past as one (just one) reason why some people join the clergy. Thank you for confirming that.

    Given that, I can see how Priests/Monks not being allowed to marry is a good and desirable thing. If one does not want to willingly sacrifice marriage, sex, and reproduction, then one should simply not become a Priest or Monk.
    Well to be honest it is a bit of a simplification, he talked about having or keeping a sex life in perspective, that in most marriages or relationships its not simply available or on tap and about competing demands of work and other goals in life.

    He talked about how nothing like the priesthood would afford just so much time for personal and spiritual development, travel, experiencing other cultures, all that. The remarkable thing about it too is that he told me not to consider the priesthood, not until later in life, he said that if I was through my thirties and hadnt a family or other priorities to get back in touch.

    I agree that they should consider their vocation before they join the clergy and if the vows of celibacy, poverty and obedience then dont get ordained. There's ways to serve the church other than in the priesthood, even if you think that its a mess it doesnt mean you will put it right by personally volunteering for that role either.

    I dont see how anyone could support a wife and kids on the subsistence allowance that monks and priests get, I dont know if its fair to expect or ask them to, even if you're in love. Realistically too I think that the vow of obedience places priests in the same position as soldiers and their families would have the same experiences as army wives and children.

    I've just no idea how it all works out in the congregations which allow for marriage and families but there must be systems of virtually taxing the followers or something.

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