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  1. #111
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    There is more to it than just being a big organization.
    You're right. It's the only voluntary organization on Planet Earth that consists of more than 1 billion members, so that is a little bit more important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Ahhh gee I never thought of it that way! :rolli:

    As if Catholics have never criticised their own church before. Hilaire Belloc was one the staunchest Catholics in English politics and yet even he remarked:

    "As a Catholic, my faith tells me that the Church has a divine origin, but my own experience tells me that it must be divine because no human institution run with an equal mixture of ineptitude and wickedness would have lasted a fortnight."
    Never said there wasn't internal dissent. That being said, there's no reason to characterize all external criticism as attempting to harm the Church. That's simply paranoid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post


    It is aye!!



    Wait, you're not serious are you?
    I liken it to the way that in some circles, the US gets eviscerated for its activities no matter what. Sometimes the critics are right, and sometimes they're simply off. That doesn't mean the criticism is invalid.

  2. #112
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    You're right. It's the only voluntary organization on Planet Earth that consists of more than 1 billion members, so that is a little bit more important.



    Never said there wasn't internal dissent. That being said, there's no reason to characterize all external criticism as attempting to harm the Church. That's simply paranoid.
    That's just a repetition of what you already said, and it still has the same problems.
    Johari Nohari

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  3. #113
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    That's just a repetition of what you already said, and it still has the same problems.
    Which are...

  4. #114
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post


    It is aye!!



    Wait, you're not serious are you?
    Why wouldn't you think he is serious?

  5. #115
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    [Catholicism] It's the only voluntary organization on Planet Earth that consists of more than 1 billion members...
    And almost all of the one billion are baptised without their consent.

    So we don't volunteer to join the Roman Catholic Church, we volunteer to leave.

    But guess what - the Church has a ceremony to join but no ceremony to leave.

    But credit where credit is due - at least they don't kill apostates.

  6. #116
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    See I'm interested in that view because its uniquely modern and I think also unreflective of objective conditions, there is a presumption at the heart of that reckoning that sex is available, inconsequential, always fun and a positive good.

    Objectively that's not the case, sex is not available to everyone, is not inconsequential considering not simply health implications, unwanted or unplanned pregnancies, its not always fun and its not always a positive good either.

    In the last two instances questions arise also about is it the most fun you can have? And what is it positive in comparison to? For instance is it better to crave sexual satisfaction or reputation, spirituality?

    Equally there is bad and good sex, not simply sex, and surely it ought to be obvious to anyone that no sex is preferable to bad sex?

    I reckon if that really and truly was factored into peoples thinking there'd be really different lives being lived by just about everyone, possibly even less rape, child abuse or predatory behaviour, human trafficking, objectification and if you buy some of the Freudian or psychosexual theorising there is less torture, sexual violence or sado-masochism.
    I don't know why you think there is an underlying assumption that "sex is available, inconsequential, always fun and a positive good." I don't agree with this statement at all. I simply said that it is unnatural to deny a person sex because as humans, we have biological urges to reproduce, and this attempts to squash a very basic human desire. I can think of little good coming from this particular rule. I guess that I would value the ability of a priest to inspire, motivate, and guide their congregation. To take away something so normal to the human condition would not seem to make them any more in tune with those in their congregation. It perhaps could even lead one to live in an ivory tower.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Non-celibate clergy actually face greater proportions of sex scandals than the Catholic Church. I've pointed out many times how public schools suffer from pedophiles far more than the priesthood. I would go more into details of this, but I'm just getting tired of having to repeat myself time after time after time after time after time.
    Sorry for asking you to repeat yourself but I'd be interested in the evidence supporting this. It wouldn't surprise me. The stories in the media are designed to sell. A number of people in the military died in the last week. That is much more important than Lindsay Lohan and yet people want to hear about Lindsay Lohan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    This thread's been interesting if only because I didnt know there was so much anti-roman catholicism in the world besides Britain and Northern Ireland.
    I'm not anti-roman catholic. I grew up catholic. However, I do disagree with a number of things which is in part why I switched.

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  7. #117
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    I don't have a problem with the Catholic church or how they do things except that I think that Priests should be allowed to get married.

  8. #118
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I don't have a problem with the Catholic church or how they do things except that I think that Priests should be allowed to get married.
    Exactly

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  9. #119
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Sorry for asking you to repeat yourself but I'd be interested in the evidence supporting this. It wouldn't surprise me. The stories in the media are designed to sell. A number of people in the military died in the last week. That is much more important than Lindsay Lohan and yet people want to hear about Lindsay Lohan.
    This should suffice:
    Although Catholic priests may be getting the most publicity about allegations of sexual abuse of minors, they are far from the only clergy guilty of such misconduct, according to a professor of history and religious studies at Pennsylvania State University.

    "You name me a denomination and I'll give you a case," Philip Jenkins told The Catholic Standard & Times, Philadelphia archdiocesan newspaper. "Some (denominations) with huge problems include Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Buddhists, Jews, Baptists, Pentecostals, Episcopalians -- you name them."

    One of the most extreme cases of clergy sex abuse in U.S. history involved a Pentecostal minister named Tony Leyva, who molested several hundred boys in the 1980s, Jenkins said. But few Americans have heard of Leyva, he added, while some molesters who are former Catholic priests have become household names.

    Jenkins attributes that not to anti-Catholicism, but to various groups within the Catholic Church who have agendas unrelated to the sexual abuse scandal.

    "In the 1980s, as cases came to light, it was very often Catholic factions themselves who made this out to be a Catholic issue," he said. "Liberals within the church said, 'See, this is a dreadful problem. It shows what happens when you don't have women priests.' Conservatives said, 'This shows what happens when you have gay priests.' This was adopted by the secular press."...

    ...Patricia Kelly of Kelly Counseling and Consulting in Glen Mills, Pa., agrees that other denominations have at least as high an incidence of sexual misconduct problems as the Catholic Church.

    A number of years ago, Kelly said, she participated in a treatment program for clergy with sex abuse problems. "Most of the clergy that were there were not Catholic clergy," she said. "They were Protestant clergy. Most clergy that abuse are ministers, but the (Catholic) Church is sexy. It sells papers."


    Writing in the March 3 issue of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Jenkins cited an unnamed Anglican diocese in Canada that "is currently on the verge of bankruptcy as a result of massive lawsuits caused by decades of systematic abuse."

    That case refutes the argument that the sex abuse problem stems from the practice of celibacy, he said, since "the Anglican Church does not demand celibacy of its clergy."

    In the United States, a $1.2 million judgment in 1991 against the Episcopal Diocese of Colorado in a sexual misconduct case brought by a woman led the Church Insurance Co., which insures Episcopal dioceses, to mandate certain safeguards that are considered among the strictest in the country....

    Philip Jenkins on the Pervasiveness of Sex Abuse Cases in All Churches
    Here's Jenkins's piece as well(btw Jenkins is Episcopalian):
    My research of cases over the past 20 years indicates no evidence whatever that Catholic or other celibate clergy are any more likely to be involved in misconduct or abuse than clergy of any other denomination -- or indeed, than nonclergy. However determined news media may be to see this affair as a crisis of celibacy, the charge is just unsupported.

    Literally every denomination and faith tradition has its share of abuse cases, and some of the worst involve non-Catholics. Every mainline Protestant denomination has had scandals aplenty, as have Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews, Buddhists, Hare Krishnas -- and the list goes on. One Canadian Anglican (Episcopal) diocese is currently on the verge of bankruptcy as a result of massive lawsuits caused by decades of systematic abuse, yet the Anglican church does not demand celibacy of its clergy.....

    .... Just to find some solid numbers, how many Catholic clergy are involved in misconduct? We actually have some good information on this issue, since in the early 1990s, the Catholic Archdiocese of Chicago undertook a bold and thorough self-study. The survey examined every priest who had served in the archdiocese over the previous 40 years, some 2,200 individuals, and reopened every internal complaint ever made against these men. The standard of evidence applied was not legal proof that would stand up in a court of law, but just the consensus that a particular charge was probably justified.

    By this low standard, the survey found that about 40 priests, about 1.8 percent of the whole, were probably guilty of misconduct with minors at some point in their careers. Put another way, no evidence existed against about 98 percent of parish clergy, the overwhelming majority of the group. Since other organizations dealing with children have not undertaken such comprehensive studies, we have no idea whether the Catholic figure is better or worse than the rate for schoolteachers, residential home counselors, social workers or scout masters.

    The Chicago study also found that of the 2,200 priests, just one was a pedophile. Now, many people are confused about the distinction between a pedophile and a person guilty of sex with a minor. The difference is very significant. The phrase "pedophile priests" conjures up images of the worst violation of innocence, callous molesters like Father Porter who assault children 7 years old. "Pedophilia" is a psychiatric term meaning sexual interest in children below the age of puberty.

    But the vast majority of clergy misconduct cases are nothing like this. The vast majority of instances involve priests who have been sexually active with a person below the age of sexual consent, often 16 or 17 years old, or even older. An act of this sort is wrong on multiple counts: It is probably criminal, and by common consent it is immoral and sinful; yet it does not have the utterly ruthless, exploitative character of child molestation. In almost all cases too, with the older teenagers, there is an element of consent.

    Also, the definition of "childhood" varies enormously between different societies. If an act of this sort occurred in most European countries, it would probably be legal, since the age of consent for boys is usually around 15. To take a specific example, when newspapers review recent cases of "pedophile priests," they commonly cite a case that occurred in California's Orange County, when a priest was charged with having consensual sex with a 17-year-old boy. Whatever the moral quality of such an act, most of us would not apply the term "child abuse" or "pedophilia." For this reason alone, we need to be cautious when we read about scores of priests being "accused of child abuse."

    The age of the young person involved is also so important because different kinds of sexual misconduct respond differently to treatment, and church authorities need to respond differently. If a diocese knows a man is a pedophile, and ever again places him in a position where he has access to more children, that decision is simply wrong, and probably amounts to criminal neglect. But a priest who has a relationship with an older teenager is much more likely to respond to treatment, and it would be more understandable if some day the church placed him in a new parish, under careful supervision.....

    ...The story of clerical misconduct is bad enough without turning into an unjustifiable outbreak of religious bigotry against the Catholic Church.

    The Myth of the Pedophile Priest

  10. #120
    Sniffles
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    Here's also a site for sex abuse victims in the Orthodox Church:
    POKROV.ORG :: A RESOURCE FOR SURVIVORS OF ABUSE IN THE ORTHODOX CHURCHES

    A few years ago, I was reading about one major sex scandal in Greece.

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