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  1. #101
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Supporting right-wing death squads in Latin America, and looking the other way when Liberation Theology priests were assassinated didn't help much, either.
    And the alternative was what exactly? It parallels what happened in Spain with the Civil War. And furthermore, wtf does this have to the topic?

  2. #102
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    You forgot about the Church being a primary instigator of the culture wars in the 1970s. Supporting right-wing death squads in Latin America, and looking the other way when Liberation Theology priests were assassinated didn't help much, either.
    It's not actually as clear cut as that. For starters, the Church was more against the leftist commie guerrillas in latin america than in favor of any particular regimes (excluding perhaps the local latin american bishops, who would suffer along with the Church at the hands of in-power leftists). Also, there are a lot of people today who support this liberation theology prevalent in latin america. What they will not tell you is that sometimes individual catholic priests actually supported leftist guerrillas with intelligence, as in the case of the el salvador jesuit martyrs. Pope JPII and Benedict have flat out said liberation theology is not in line with catholic teachings. Pope JPII also told Archbishop romero to keep quiet before he was assassinated.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  3. #103
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    And the alternative was what exactly? It parallels what happened in Spain with the Civil War. And furthermore, wtf does this have to the topic?
    Just demonstrating that what some may term as "anti-Catholicism" isn't just beating up on the little guy and making a scapegoat.

    The Catholic Church is an immensely powerful organization, and as such, its actions will be heavily scrutinized. That's why this is a big deal, nothing more, and nothing less.

  4. #104
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Just demonstrating that what some may term as "anti-Catholicism" isn't just beating up on the little guy and making a scapegoat.

    The Catholic Church is an immensely powerful organization, and as such, its actions will be heavily scrutinized. That's why this is a big deal, nothing more, and nothing less.
    There is more to it than just being a big organization.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  5. #105
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    The Catholic Church is an immensely powerful organization, and as such, its actions will be heavily scrutinized. That's why this is a big deal, nothing more, and nothing less.
    Ahhh gee I never thought of it that way! :rolli:

    As if Catholics have never criticised their own church before. Hilaire Belloc was one the staunchest Catholics in English politics and yet even he remarked:

    "As a Catholic, my faith tells me that the Church has a divine origin, but my own experience tells me that it must be divine because no human institution run with an equal mixture of ineptitude and wickedness would have lasted a fortnight."

  6. #106
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    At the anti-catholic derails.

    Take Five its right that the church is split over Liberation Theology, I'd prefere conflict to consensus on that topic, although I will say that the priests who did support guerillas and created LT had little option, their congregations where either literally starving or being tortured and shot, its never been a perspective which endorsed the USSR or regimes like it either to be honest.

    Those Popes that you mentioned have done their best to revoke and reverse Vatican 2 so its not surprising that they resist LT, in the case of JP its likely that its because he pretty much resisted a lot of modernism, to the strictly traditionalist wing of RC socialism is just capitalism #2 or capitalism +, and Ratzinger opposes anything remotely left of centre because some stroppy students over turned a table at one of his lectures in Germany in '68 or some crap like that and convinced him there was a crisis of authority in the west.

    To be honest I'm not sure I'm happy about this whole Benedict thing but God didnt intervene to stop it so...

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Ahhh gee I never thought of it that way! :rolli:

    As if Catholics have never criticised their own church before. Hilaire Belloc was one the staunchest Catholics in English politics and yet even he remarked:

    "As a Catholic, my faith tells me that the Church has a divine origin, but my own experience tells me that it must be divine because no human institution run with an equal mixture of ineptitude and wickedness would have lasted a fortnight."
    I really like Belloc Peguy you read him much? Not many thinkers like him, I was surprised to find out that Robert Nisbet and a lot of US conservatives are inspired by him, considering he thought of himself as left of centre anti-capitalist.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    The Catholic Church is an immensely powerful organization, and as such, its actions will be heavily scrutinized. That's why this is a big deal, nothing more, and nothing less.


    It is aye!!



    Wait, you're not serious are you?

  9. #109
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post

    ...and Ratzinger opposes anything remotely left of centre because some stroppy students over turned a table at one of his lectures in Germany in '68 or some crap like that and convinced him there was a crisis of authority in the west.
    LOL Did that really happen? The way you put makes it pretty funny. I actually really like Benedict though. His Jesus of Nazareth book is brilliant...and I like him even more about the crisis of authority.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    LOL Did that really happen? The way you put makes it pretty funny. I actually really like Benedict though. His Jesus of Nazareth book is brilliant...and I like him even more about the crisis of authority.
    Its a bit of a bizarre story and Hans Kung's retelling of it is priceless, Kung was big at the time of the second vatican council and actually got Ratzinger appointed as chair of dogmatics or something like that, then Kung decided the pope was infallible anymore and they had a big fall out, Kung is still a priest but isnt allowed to teach theology as anything other than a secular writer now.

    Anyway Ratzinger was a Hitler Youth when he was growing up and depending on how the story goes he either loved the discipline and order of it all or hated it so much he decided, bizarrely, that liberals and communists where to blame for it by causing a crisis in authority in the western world.

    What really happened during his lecture was that he turned up to give it and a group of hippy students where staging a sit in, he asked them with the authority of his office as lecturer to leave and they said no. Pretty much that's it. The guy wouldnt have survived a minute in any modern kindergarden or high school from the sound of it. To be truthful I'm be embarrassed for the authority which would take eejits like the students of '68 seriously enough to get threatened by them, its a low point that in the US they went as far as shooting them.

    I've not read his book but I keep an eye out for it in the bargain bookshops, I've got Kung's book on the history of Roman Catholicism and in the main I like it but I dont think his ideas about reforms which would embarrass the liberal homosexual wing of protestantism are such a good idea.

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