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  1. #91
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Homosexual clergy invited to leave the Catholic Priesthood

    And now because the Church doesn't want the guys in the OP video, people (the secular socialists of course) will paint the Church condemnatory of all homosexuals, regardless of vows or homosexual activity.

    What the news won't tell you is that scandals like this happen outiside the church just as frequently or moreso. Likely, instead of celibacy, the sexual activity and deviance is spurred by the ultra sex-centered Western world that we all, including the clergy, live in.

    There's no horse so dead you can't beat it one more time.
    Is the scandal from the activity or the hypocrisy surrounding it?

    Secular humanist is probably a better term, too - there are plenty of capitalists who fall into that category.

  2. #92
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I'm going to try to get more linear and if that doesn't work, quit the thread so as not to further muddy it. Here goes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    *popcorn*

    It's a shame really... I mean, apparently a profound sexual repression is not healthy, despite a church's efforts to claim that it is. How many more cases of this stuff need to be found out before these people really start examining the root of what's going on?
    This remark implies that celibacy has no virtue and is only the repressive attitude of Christians toward sex. But celibacy as a spiritual value/virtue/advantage in the path toward holiness goes back way before Christianity (see the Bhagvad Gita).

    I think the point of these exposes is not so much to assert that celibacy is useless, but to discredit the Catholic church.

    Why would anyone want to discredit the Catholic church? Off the top of my head, because it is one of several entities that wants to keep abortion illegal and deny homosexual marriage/equal rights.

    How can you weaken the Catholic church? Take the people out of it. Weaken the belief system.

    How can you remove the people who believe in the Catholic church and weaken their faith? By constantly exposing them to the idea that their priests are hypocrites and not of God; by exposing believers to ridicule from secular people who have seen such articles and use them to jeer at believing Catholics.

    I'm saying one purpose of such news articles is to cause Catholics to lose faith, leave their church, and therefore not vote against such things as the idea that marriage is only between men and women, sex is for procreation, birth control is wrong, abortion is wrong.

    Whether anyone believes it or not, there is good evidence and many do think that the Catholic church (among others) is militant politically about these ideas.

    This explains why pedophiles in schools, etc., don't get as much press. Public schools have no political agenda so there is no use in discrediting them. The church is seen to have a powerful agenda, so there is much interest in discrediting it.

    This is all I meant to say and I hope none of it was insulting to the Catholic church because that's not what I meant.

  3. #93
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    It's like earlier - I would argue from an angle regarding the Church as a political organization, and he'd argue that it's something different, as a religious organization, and we'd talk past each other and get nowhere.

    His (and I'm assuming yours) perspective is that ultimately, the Holy Mother Church is capital-R Right about things, and that's one I simply don't share, and am likely not to share any time soon. So it's to the best that we not dance around in such pointless circles.
    Its right that if you feel you have an intractable problem with Roman Catholicism to recognise that admit there cant even be any dialogue without it winding up talking past one another as you put it.

    The church has been a political organisation, or I would say political animal, its never been its primary purpose though, and I'd suggest that is not a religious institution or Church in existence for which this is not equally the case, with the possible exception of smaller faith communities such as the Amish, Moravians (spelling) or the like, although they have their own intentional communities which is a seperate topic maybe.

    However, I'm not sure about what the relevence is of the church's political vs. religious role in the past or your view about the rightness or wrongness of the church has to do with the present thread.

  4. #94
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    This thread's been interesting if only because I didnt know there was so much anti-roman catholicism in the world besides Britain and Northern Ireland.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    This thread's been interesting if only because I didnt know there was so much anti-roman catholicism in the world besides Britain and Northern Ireland.
    It's long been a staple of the American scene. Only in the mid-20th century was there a calm respect for Catholics within American society. That ended with the upheavals of the cultural revolution of the 60s.

    There's a reason why Peter Viereck noted that Anti-Catholicism is the Anti-Semitism of Liberals.

  6. #96
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    The article is based off another article from a S.S. source. Which is the only reason I specifically mention them. Others share the blame.
    Sorry when you say secular socialist I automatically think of these eejits:



    If there's a couple hundred of them in the world their numbers have grown.

  7. #97
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its right that if you feel you have an intractable problem with Roman Catholicism to recognise that admit there cant even be any dialogue without it winding up talking past one another as you put it.

    The church has been a political organisation, or I would say political animal, its never been its primary purpose though, and I'd suggest that is not a religious institution or Church in existence for which this is not equally the case, with the possible exception of smaller faith communities such as the Amish, Moravians (spelling) or the like, although they have their own intentional communities which is a seperate topic maybe.

    However, I'm not sure about what the relevence is of the church's political vs. religious role in the past or your view about the rightness or wrongness of the church has to do with the present thread.
    I don't have a problem with Roman Catholicism per se, as much as I do the idea that it's impossible to analyze it purely as a human institution, separate from its spiritual aspects.

    Meh, it was a tangent. And I agree on the church as political animal. In fact, I personally think it's absolutely impossible to separate religion from politics. When we do so, we replace it with "ideology", which is nothing but religion in modern clothing.

    The relevance is that because we're coming from such different first principles, we're never going to get to a point of understanding on what exactly is going on here, and why the response has manifested itself as such.

  8. #98
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Is the scandal from the activity or the hypocrisy surrounding it?

    Secular humanist is probably a better term, too - there are plenty of capitalists who fall into that category.
    Both, depending on which Church-attacker you're talking to. However, neither sexual deviance nor hypocrisy are monopolized by th RCC. Far from it. Check the stats about sexual deviance, especially with regard to authority figures as perpetrators.

    Again, I only mention the S.S. because the subject of the article was spurred by coverage in a socialist paper. Others are certainly to blame, but in this case the attack is spearheaded by secular socialists.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  9. #99
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    It's long been a staple of the American scene. Only in the mid-20th century was there a calm respect for Catholics within American society. That ended with the upheavals of the cultural revolution of the 60s.

    There's a reason why Peter Viereck noted that Anti-Catholicism is the Anti-Semitism of Liberals.
    You forgot about the Church being a primary instigator of the culture wars in the 1970s. Supporting right-wing death squads in Latin America, and looking the other way when Liberation Theology priests were assassinated didn't help much, either.

  10. #100
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    It's long been a staple of the American scene. Only in the mid-20th century was there a calm respect for Catholics within American society. That ended with the upheavals of the cultural revolution of the 60s.

    There's a reason why Peter Viereck noted that Anti-Catholicism is the Anti-Semitism of Liberals.
    It still surprises me when I hear about it, I remember reading really old history books which talked about JFK going across the states and getting a grilling in the south about how he could be president when he was a roman catholic and responding by saying that no one asked his father about his religion when he fought in the war.

    I have read fringe stories about how southern protestants thought that if the Great Society wasnt communism it was "Romanism" whatever that is but never gave them much credience before. Its fascinating in a way because I thought the UK and NI where the two places where it remained the case but I've been wrong.

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