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  1. #41
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    A smart child will be compelled to challenge himself, and boredom in the class or at home does not translate into intellectual hopelessness.. the child will seek out stimulation.
    I think that's an eventuality that reads as 'troublemaking'.

    The purpose of (good) education is to focus the student's intelligence and energies into something productive that keeps on building i.e. 'knowledge' and hopefully critical thinking skills or igniting a previously unknown passion for X. It's supposed to draw the full potential out of children.

    With children with needs outside the median, again whether it's 'strictly' an IQ thing or learning method thing, if you can't properly engage the child's interest or hold their attention, I agree, they will find other ways to satisfy their inclinations. Even if it's 'loafing about' or 'playing hooky' or being delinquent. True, 'seeking out stimulation' outside of what the school proper provides isn't always going to be so negative, but well, it kinda is.

    That's not only unbeneficial to the child themselves but is also a distraction to other students and just overall not a good use of a school's resources.

    This is what I mean by identifying and then meeting children's needs.

    Also, while it's possible to attain intellectual greatness without traditional schooling, traditional institutions of learning and those set pathways are generally the way you have to go to gain access and publishing in certain realms. Like the sciences, including social sciences. I just see a lot of 'smart' people who never got a chance to enter academia or develop their intellect professionally, not because they didn't want to -- but because their school lacked the resources to meet them halfway. Or else they became slackers partly because they were never properly challenged and engaged in school. What a waste.

  2. #42
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I think that's an eventuality that reads as 'troublemaking'.

    The purpose of (good) education is to focus the student's intelligence and energies into something productive that keeps on building i.e. 'knowledge' and hopefully critical thinking skills or igniting a previously unknown passion for X. It's supposed to draw the full potential out of children.

    With children with needs outside the median, again whether it's 'strictly' an IQ thing or learning method thing, if you can't properly engage the child's interest or hold their attention, I agree, they will find other ways to satisfy their inclinations. Even if it's 'loafing about' or 'playing hooky' or being delinquent. True, 'seeking out stimulation' outside of what the school proper provides isn't always going to be so negative, but well, it kinda is.

    That's not only unbeneficial to the child themselves but is also a distraction to other students and just overall not a good use of a school's resources.

    This is what I mean by identifying and then meeting children's needs.

    Also, while it's possible to attain intellectual greatness without traditional schooling, traditional institutions of learning and those set pathways are generally the way you have to go to gain access and publishing in certain realms. Like the sciences, including social sciences. I just see a lot of 'smart' people who never got a chance to enter academia or develop their intellect professionally, not because they didn't want to -- but because their school lacked the resources to meet them halfway. Or else they became slackers partly because they were never properly challenged and engaged in school. What a waste.
    There are gifted people who have achieved the professional level in their fields outside the set pathways of learning.
    I know two such individuals in RL, both of the same family. One INTJ and one INFP.
    Some people are not fit to learn in school? School is not fit to teach them?

    The society is not interested in merit. It is interested in the emblems of merit.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    i aint be much learned as much as some folks but i figure i aint too bad

    i did me that there eye que test, did real well i got a 91%!

  4. #44
    Junior Member 25Hour's Avatar
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    I never took any sort of IQ test, but on some state test or another test I scored in the top 1 percentile, so I feel qualified to offer my two cents. So here goes!

    My experience was that, on the one hand, public school was pretty good for socialization. I started out high school incredibly shy; my only friends were ones that I had spent my childhood with, and it was largely to keep them around that I stayed in the public school system. By the end, I learned how to get along with most people—making small talk (though I still hate it), and all that. (I really have no idea if the socialization aspect of a private school would have been better or worse.) The material was almost universally too easy, but that was a problem that could easily be remedied by bringing books to school, which I read on a regular basis after doing the coursework in class.

    A large downside of the public school was that, since I was in an environment where I was constantly more skilled than my peers, I began to grow really arrogant about my academic abilities, because, of course, I would judge those abilities with my peers as a baseline. The only thing keeping my ego in check was being on the track team, where I placed last in all competitions—I think this is what kept me tolerable during those years. Getting into a good college was also very humbling. (“Oh my god! I’m *average* here!”)

    This is why, though I get Aelan’s objection that creating special schools could foster a sense of entitlement among those students that get in, I believe that it’s actually the lesser of two evils. I think that these gifted kids really, really need to be in an environment where they can get their ass handed to them by the other children at semi-regular intervals, or they’ll become intolerable and the real world will eat their inflated egos alive. After all, it’s one thing to know, in the abstract, that you’re smarter than 99 percent of the population. But on a deeper level, I think we compare ourselves to those folks we see every day, not to some vague idea of the “average person.” And if the people you see every day are just as smart as you, that only leaves so much room to become an arrogant jackass. (Again, the only real data I’m using is my own experience. Sample size = 1.) So that’s why I like the idea of gifted schools.

  5. #45
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    The school is for the intelligent.
    Intelligence is quick association and memory.

    Giftedness is disassociation.

    To learn is not to find out.

  6. #46
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Feelings of entitlement come more from (socio)economic class than anything else. I've known gifted kids from underclass backgrounds who get sent to magnet schools or else get schoalrships to prestigious private schools who never swallow old-school airs of superiority. They can't. Because that world, regardless of their acknowledged intelligence, is not really for them, even though they have been given a side-door in.

    If anything they become more sharply aware of class differences and may develop self-consciousness or defensive mechanisms.

    As for socialization, I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that adolescence is ROUGH regardless of your IQ, gender, geographic location, etc. Having said that, I would have much rather gone to a school of like-minded people. Like-minded, meaning a specialized arts/drama school or experimental school which would have fit my temperament and intelligences (which are linked...). I would have liked a more expressive, creative, and probably linguistic focused learning environment.

    My private highschool had a lot of smart people, high-scoring on SATS and such, taking advanced math and science classes, AP classes, going to 'prestigious universities' in the English speaking world. Along with the insane grade inflation and extremely poor level of instruction and teachers and mediocre facilities. Again, any 'academic excellence' the students achieved was more a reflection on the priveleged class of most students than a testament to our great school. And people who were considered dumb were looked down upon, you gained a bit of respect and even popularity if you could get straight A's and got into an Ivy.

    So intelligence itself didn't make you an outcast, your personality and your kind of intelligence did. There's a program in the states called Telluride which is a scholarship camp for those who get commendations on the PSAT (so usually 1400s or so) However, it's not just for those high scorers, they look for a very particular kind of intelligence and screen for it in their applications. Basically an intellectual, someone inquisitive and mature, probably progressive, who really thinks deeply about the world, themselves, and context.

    High intelligence itself in a social context means nothing. IMHO there's nothing exceptional or out of the ordinary in the conversation and class-room discussion you get from someone just because they have a high IQ. A lot of 'smart kids' were quite popular in my school. It depends among other things on their maturity, inclinations, your kind of intelligence, etc.

    Which is why I do advocate for having schools meant more for critical thinking and thinking outside the box, etc. etc. etc.

    Randomly: if you really did take the wall-flowers and outcasts out of the school environment, would it really hurt them or their classmates? There are students in every class year who fall under the radar, make few friends, and probably don't really enjoy their school social environment. Perhaps if there was a way to create a smaller school environment they could be drawn out and connect with one another? And would the rest of the kids, so absorbed in the microcosms of their own little clicks and worlds -- would they be any worse for not being exposed to wall flowers and outcasts in their teenaged years?

    Alright, nevermind, I can see why the answer would be a YES (it's a bad idea) and then a NO (dont' do it).

    And now to bed I go!
    Last edited by CzeCze; 01-15-2008 at 12:18 PM.

  7. #47
    Oberon
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    "You wasted $150,000 on an education you coulda got for a buck fifty in late charges at the public library." -Will Hunting

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    "You wasted $150,000 on an education you coulda got for a buck fifty in late charges at the public library." -Will Hunting
    Despite Will Hunting being a fictional character, imagine what would have happened to him if he had received an MIT education? Do you think he would have the emotional problems he had?

    BTW, no-one I know who owns almost nothing more than a few bookshelves would use it just to "be smart" as the Will Hunting character seemed to. It is an overriding fascination, and curiosity-lust that drives such people, not the drive to be some sort of "hot shot." I find it rather strange that he had no desire to turn his knowledge into some contribution to the community he learned so much from. A very unbelievable character.

    You should check out: Lowell High School.

    A great many disadvantaged families move to that area, just so that their kids will get a chance to go to Lowell (and have to deal with high rents, etc.)

    It is a public magnet school. I think it does wonders for kids who would otherwise spend most of their time avoiding drugs and gangs, but have a great deal of potential to escape the traps of their socio-economics.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  9. #49
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    I have no belief in gifted classes at all. It quite easily becomes stigmatising in an environment mixed with normal students. That's why I want special schools, that wouldn't be stigmatising, there would be no conflict between children in normal classes and gifted classes. What I imagine is IQ testing children before school. 199/200 goes into normal school, while 1/200 will go to a special school for gifted children. Not to create elite schools, but because these children are very vulnerable and has special needs that normal schools can't meet. I possibly want IQ test results to be confidential, and only to be used to find out if a child has special needs because of giftedness. I don't want much focus on IQ in schools, it's not healthy.
    god forbid those 'gifted' children would ever have to associate with mere mortals, then they'd also develop gifts of teamwork, diplomacy, explanation, and charisma. They'd just be to gifted!
    I think the idea of seperate schools is horrible (especially having it based on a bullshit test like IQ). All that 'giftedness' (as judged by american standards) doesn't make any of those people any more effectual, and I will bet that putting them in that kind of bubble (I use that word ON PURPOSE!!) will only end them up with more 'special needs'.
    And really, since the most influential people in this world aren't the highest IQ's, what about everyone else? I say 'everyone else' needs that kind of help too, because they have JUST AS MUCH POTENTIAL TO BE INFLUENTIAL PEOPLE.

  10. #50
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    All that 'giftedness' (as judged by american standards) doesn't make any of those people any more effectual
    That's exactly what I was trying to express but you worded it for me. Thanks.

    Yes, a survey done of millionaires showed that there isn't much of a correlation of earned income and IQ. This could also be because a lot of the millionaires had inherited much or all of their wealth. But even amongst self-made millionaires, I think the study showed that most people were of average intelligence. I think the stereotype is that the 'geniuses' are mad scientists who don't care about money but inventions or else are ill suited to the demands of business. Like Tesla. Then there are the smarty pants in the tech revolution who can succeed at both, or else are wise enough to get business partners.

    I guess I was trying to point to different KINDS of intelligence as opposed to just pure high IQ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    and I will bet that putting them in that kind of bubble (I use that word ON PURPOSE!!) will only end them up with more 'special needs'.
    I'm not sure about that, I think public schools as they are, are very bad at integrating different stratas and groups of children. Sure you go to the same school, but you don't really interact or get along. And for the very high IQ children that the OP referred to, if they have problems relating to their peers or people in general and have socializing issues, frankly, it's probably just them and will be lifelong aside from serious self-work. Putting them in a smaller or specialized environment with similar kids can't hurt them anymore than going to a school where they are ostracized or feel disconnected to their peer group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    I say 'everyone else' needs that kind of help too, because they have JUST AS MUCH POTENTIAL TO BE INFLUENTIAL PEOPLE.
    Spoken just like an ENFP.

    I don't disagree that everyone deserves an excellent education and opportunities. And I agree, I don't think high IQ itself is correlated necessarily to contributing to society which is why I stated in previous posts about the need for more nuanced education. Like education models that based on learning styles and teach life skills, social responsibility, and hone kinds of intelligences like intrapersonal, etc.

    I guess the happy medium or most egalitarian way of looking at it is that everyone has different needs. And I believe there is a way to meet those needs not to the exclusion of others.

    I think people, especially in the states and with good reason, feel there is a limited number of resources that everyone has to fight over. Everything is a competition and people are keenly aware of their position on they pyramid and nobody wants to be dead last. There's also the eternal carrot and promise that you can be no. 1 if you just try hard enough. Or deserve it.

    But really, it's not like that. It really is possible to serve the needs of EVERYONE including high IQ children. You want people to be the best that they can be and draw out their potential. In this regard, high IQ children are no more and no less deserving. And also, 'high IQ children' is not a static, homogenous group, even within this subset are a variety of learning styles, temperaments, and personalities, just like children in general. And the most effective learning models will take these differences into account.

    I don't think the goal of education should be to spew out cookie cutter children.

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