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  1. #291
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    "If they don't like it, send 'em back to where they came from!" eh? Anyone else saying that who you can think of?
    I can't even be bothered to read your latest multi-coloured rant, you seem to be getting more hysterical with each post. So it's best that I don't encourage you.

    But I saw this quoted and won't let it slide. You are flirting with slander and defamation of character, so be careful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #292
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    Why do you think their religion tells women to wear the burqa or hijab? To prevent men from feelings of sexual attraction towards them. Why? Because it can lead to fornication or adultery.
    Should we prevent women from feeling sexual attraction towards men too? What are they so afraid of?

    What strikes me in the Muslim world is the sexual frustration of men. They seem so insecure. It's everywhere, and it pervades any sane egalitarian relationship between men and women.
    Sexual misery, humiliation and jealousy are the greatest forces amongst us.

    So where lies real perversion, tell me?

    Where is the difference between the Burqa and pornography? Basically, it's the same instinct.
    If men want women to wear those "walking coffin", it's because they think with their dicks, not with their heads.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  3. #293
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Should we prevent women from feeling sexual attraction towards men too? What are they so afraid of?

    What strikes me in the Muslim world is the sexual frustration of men. They seem so insecure. It's everywhere, and it pervades any sane egalitarian relationship between men and women.
    Sexual misery, humiliation and jealousy are the greatest forces amongst us.

    So where lies real perversion, tell me?

    Where is the difference between the Burqa and pornography? Basically, it's the same instinct.
    If men want women to wear those "walking coffin", it's because they think with their dicks, not with their heads.
    It's like an alcoholic asking his wife to hide the whisky and blaming her when he finds it.

  4. #294
    sophiloist Kaizer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Dude, YOU are the one who "subtly" implied that nudity is banned because it increases rape. Since this is not an established fact, the burden of proof is now on YOU.

    You can't turn it around on me and ask me to do your dirty work. If you make an unlikely claim, do your own research.

    Btw, I think wearing red clothes causes cancer. Do you have the stats to prove me wrong? Well then.

    Sorry for the . But still nobody has tried to give a rationale for why banning nudity is ok but banning veils is not ok.
    I did no such thing. & I haven't implied anything. You're thinking all these preconceived conclusions up all by yourself.
    again, stats if anyone has em?
    The answer must be in the attempt
    avy url : natgeocreative Photo

  5. #295
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    What strikes me in the Muslim world is the sexual frustration of men. They seem so insecure. It's everywhere, and it pervades any sane egalitarian relationship between men and women.


    the sad thing is, to me, that it did not use to be this way.

    if i remember correctly, stringent covering was a 1970s ish middle eastern thing, and the whole burqa business did not become a government-mandated thing in afghanistan until the taliban took control in the mid-90s.

    i remember in AP US history we had long discussions about the very interesting phenomenon that mainstream christianity has become increasingly liberal since its inception while mainstream islam has done the opposite.

    personally, i don't give a shit if people choose to walk around naked. it's still totally on me to not jump their bones. though i do feel bad for guys, i've heard erection can be pretty involuntary.

    perhaps burqas were really invented by gay middle eastern men

  6. #296
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Should we prevent women from feeling sexual attraction towards men too? What are they so afraid of?

    What strikes me in the Muslim world is the sexual frustration of men. They seem so insecure. It's everywhere, and it pervades any sane egalitarian relationship between men and women.
    Sexual misery, humiliation and jealousy are the greatest forces amongst us.

    So where lies real perversion, tell me?

    Where is the difference between the Burqa and pornography? Basically, it's the same instinct.
    If men want women to wear those "walking coffin", it's because they think with their dicks, not with their heads.
    It reminds me of Wilhelm Reich's, "The Mass Psychology of Fascism".

  7. #297
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Should we prevent women from feeling sexual attraction towards men too? What are they so afraid of?

    What strikes me in the Muslim world is the sexual frustration of men. They seem so insecure. It's everywhere, and it pervades any sane egalitarian relationship between men and women.
    Sexual misery, humiliation and jealousy are the greatest forces amongst us.

    So where lies real perversion, tell me?

    Where is the difference between the Burqa and pornography? Basically, it's the same instinct.
    If men want women to wear those "walking coffin", it's because they think with their dicks, not with their heads.
    You raise in interesting point of discussion here, sexual frustration and rigid sex restrictions tie together into this problem. The solution and answer is simple: sex-restrictions have a direct if not a causative effect on sexual frustration. I can imagine that a lot of men in the ME chafe under the pressure of libido that is caused by a lack of availability of pre-marital sex, which any men in society would.

    I am also guessing that this phenomenon is most relevant to the lower socio-economic classes, where the conditions would increase the effects ten-fold. Since not everyone has the possibility to marry or resort to shadow practices like prostitution and homosexuality.


    Also interesting to note is that historically, before the arrival of Abrahamic Ethics to Eurasian region, sexual expression was something extremely common, especially in Mediterranean and near-eastern cultures. So much that it adorned a series of art and took a strong expression in important religious ritual's. Ever heard of the cult of Ishtar?, and female prostitution in Early Mesopotamia. Since Abrahamic morality altered all of this, the view of sex has never been the same as before. I would go even as far as saying that homosexuality(the ultimate sex taboo), was openly accepted in that practicular region which today has the most rigid sexual codes. I can't recall what the term is called exactly but runs along the Mediterranean.

    When this phenomenon that you describe takes its form in the extremes, a phenomenon which includes misogynistic element coupled with sexual frustration, and sexual unavailability it can take it's expression in adverse forms of pedophilia and catamite like practices(not to all dissimilar to incidences of catholic priest pedophilia.)

    Here is a phenomenon in Afghanistan:
    YouTube - Bacha bazi
    (I guess most of you will know what to conclude from this, also take in mind that this is not officially endorsed)

    an article about this in Wiki
    Bacha bazi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Ok I have to stop myself before i waste anymore time, hopefully i haven't completely verged off in topic completely and created a incoherent post, this is what happens when lose reins and get too caught up in correlating crap. Teritary intuition or whatever you want to call it.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  8. #298
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    What strikes me in the Muslim world is the sexual frustration of men. They seem so insecure. It's everywhere, and it pervades any sane egalitarian relationship between men and women.
    Sexual misery, humiliation and jealousy are the greatest forces amongst us.
    Here is the paradox. Most agree that restrictive practices (like wearing the burqa) feed, rather than repress sexual frustration. So even the (truly weak) justification that they protect women from unwelcome sexual attention, is shown to be false.

    Since wearing the burqa/niqab anonymizes women without removing them from public life, it is, in fact, more objectifying than the wearing of less modest attire, which nevertheless expresses the individual's personality. What more objectifying action could there be than to pursue a woman whose face and figure you cannot see, whose expressions you are ignorant of, whose voice and opinions you have never heard, who in fact, has no distinguishing characteristics - other than that she (probably) has female body parts under those swathes of cloth? Oh, and she's likely to be submissive.

    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    It's like an alcoholic asking his wife to hide the whisky and blaming her when he finds it.
    More like an alcoholic beating his wife for taking a nip.


    Thanks Peguy, for that article about the Syria ban. It led me to the following, which is perhaps the last word on the matter, from Muslim writer/lecturer Mona Eltahaway:
    The French parliament’s vote last week to ban full-length veils in public was the right move by the wrong group.
    Some have tried to present the ban as a matter of Islam vs. the West. It is not. First, Islam is not monolithic. It, like other major religions, has strains and sects. Many Muslim women -- despite their distaste for the European political right wing -- support the ban precisely because it is a strike against the Muslim right wing.

    Some have likened this issue to Switzerland’s move last year to ban the construction of minarets. On the one hand, it is preposterous to compare women’s faces -- their identity -- to a stone pillar. Minarets are used to issue a call to prayer; they are a symbol of Islam. The niqab, the full-length veil that has openings only for the eyes, is a symbol only for the Muslim right.

    But underlying both bans is a dangerous silence: liberal refusal to robustly discuss what it means to be European, what it means to be Muslim, and racism and immigration. Liberals decrying the infringement of women’s rights should acknowledge that the absence of debate on these critical issues allowed the political right and the Muslim right to seize the situation.

    Europe’s ascendant political right is unapologetically xenophobic. It caricatures the religion that I practice and uses those distortions to fan Islamophobia. But ultraconservative strains of Islam, such as Salafism and Wahhabism, also caricature our religion and use that Islamophobia to silence opposition.Salafi ideology, which is unapologetically misogynistic, has left its imprimatur on Islam globally by convincing too many Muslims that it is the purest and highest form of our faith.


    The strains of Islam that promote face veils do not believe in the concept of a woman’s right to choose and describe women as needing to be hidden to prove their “worth.” Salafism and Wahhabism preach that women will burn in hell if they are not covered from head to toe -- whether they live in Saudi Arabia or France. There is no choice in such conditioning. That is not a message Muslims learn in our holy book, the Koran, nor is the face veil prescribed by the majority of Muslim scholars.

    The French ban has been condemned as anti-liberal and anti-feminist. Where were those howls when niqabs began appearing in European countries, where for years women fought for rights? A bizarre political correctness tied the tongues of those who would normally rally to defend women’s rights.

    There are several ideological conflicts here: Within Islam, liberal and feminist Muslims refuse to believe that full-length veils are mandatory. In Saudi Arabia, where the prevalence of face veils is great, blogger Eman Al Nafjan wrote a post on Saudiwoman supporting the French ban: “I have heard Saudi women, who are conditioned to believe that covering is an unquestionable issue, sigh as they watch uncovered women on TV and say, ‘They get this world, and we get the afterlife.’ These are the women ‘choosing’ to cover, brainwashed into living to die.”

    But the problem is not just “over there.” Feminist groups run by Muslim women in various Western countries fight misogynistic practices justified in the name of culture and religion. Cultural relativists, they say, don’t want to “offend” anyone by protesting the disappearance of women behind the veil -- or worse.
    For example, French women of North African and Muslim descent launched Ni Putes Ni Soumises (Neither Whores Nor Submissives) in response to violence against women in housing projects and forced marriages of immigrant women in France. That group supports the ban and has denounced the racism faced in France by immigrant women and men.
    Cultural integration has failed, or not taken place, in many European countries, but women shouldn’t pay the price for it.
    Europe’s liberals must ask themselves why they have been silent. It is clear that Europe’s political right -- other countries have similar bans in the works -- does not care about Muslim women or their rights.
    But Muslims must ask themselves the same question: Why the silence as some of our women fade into black, either as a form of identity politics or out of acquiescence to Salafism?


    The pioneering Egyptian feminist Hoda Shaarawi famously removed her veil in 1923, declaring it a thing of the past. Almost a century later, we are foundering. The best way to support Muslim women would be to oppose both the racist political right wing and the niqabs and burqas of the Muslim right wing. Women should not be sacrificed to either.
    Let’s move away from abstract discussions and focus on the realities of women. The French were right to ban the veil in public. Those of us who really care about women’s rights should talk about the dangers in equating piety with the disappearance of women.
    Mona Eltahawy is an Egyptian-born writer and lecturer on Arab and Muslim issues. This column appeared first in The Washington Post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #299
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Here is the paradox. Most agree that restrictive practices (like wearing the burqa) feed, rather than repress sexual frustration. So even the (truly weak) justification that they protect women from unwelcome sexual attention, is shown to be false.
    Why does increased sexual frustration lead, as you suggest, to "unwelcome sexual attention"? I've been to several Arab countries and, in my limited experience, any man who pestered a covered female stranger in public would have his balls ripped off.

    Far from it being "shown to be false", your point is a non sequitur.

    Since wearing the burqa/niqab anonymizes women without removing them from public life, it is, in fact, more objectifying than the wearing of less modest attire, which nevertheless expresses the individual's personality. What more objectifying action could there be than to pursue a woman whose face and figure you cannot see, whose expressions you are ignorant of, whose voice and opinions you have never heard, who in fact, has no distinguishing characteristics - other than that she (probably) has female body parts under those swathes of cloth? Oh, and she's likely to be submissive.
    As is this one.

    You seem not to understand the complexity of the public face/private face that is central to many eastern cultures and although your conclusions may be correct, your assumptions are oversimplified.

    Mind you, some of these Arab fellows get bitten, every now and again...

    Ambassador calls for divorce after veil-wearing bride reveals a beard and crossed eyes | Mail Online

    Cheers.


  10. #300
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Why does increased sexual frustration lead, as you suggest, to "unwelcome sexual attention"?
    I was going to ask that question myself. Then I realized that it pretty much answers itself. If you disagree, perhaps you can offer an alternative explanation? Are you perhaps suggesting that men in Muslim countries are just more hot-blooded than the average male?

    I've been to several Arab countries and, in my limited experience, any man who pestered a covered female stranger in public would have his balls ripped off.
    Did your limited experience include having your balls ripped off, perchance?
    I'm basing my understanding on the reports of women, such as this British Muslim (cited earlier):
    Ironically, Saudi Arabia did not feel a more chaste place. Indeed, imposing the niqab may have had the opposite effect, so starved were the two sexes of the flirtatious attention that we all take for granted in the West. I have never been so indiscriminately pursued by men.
    That was when she was wearing her veil. Western women report even more predatory and unwelcome attention from the opposite sex. There are few places that I wouldn't travel unaccompanied. Saudi Arabia is one of them (assuming they'd even let me in - women aren't allowed to drive and are supposed to be supervised at all times). For Jordan, the foreign office advises "women, in particular, should be careful to avoid situations where they might become victims of sexual assault." Or do you think that's just good old Islamophobia at work?


    ETA. Yes, rereading my post, I see what you meant. I just didn't bother to connect all the dots. Sometimes my Ne skips one or two and just expects others to keep up. I should really break myself of that habit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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