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  1. #21
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    For the creation of a safer society, they MAY be on the right track, though I imagine that if this is truly the case, one would have heard reports of numerous Muslim female gangs robbing French banks from town to town, gleefully hiding from the prosecution behind the guise of anonymity.

    As for the "French-ness" of France being compromised, I would assert that my position as an American holds little value to the discussion. A national identity may be something France can or should aspire to, but I don't believe it to be truly present in my nation in any appreciable way.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I love the French for deciding what will be French and what will not be French. I celebrate and salute them for it.

    You can wear whatever else you want, but you can't wear that here. You can have that culture anywhere else you want, but you can't have it in France.

    It just delights me.

  3. #23
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    "Freedom" thus equates to "social conformity" to a society that holds dear to the principle of freedom as an ideal to be aspired to, but has forgotten how to put it into practice.
    So it would seem...

    I wonder it will backfire in the way that the "liberation" of Iraq has?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #24
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    I wonder if perhaps you may be looking at the issue from a rather limited perspective. After all, one might see the advantage of the veil from a practical standpoint, rather than elevate the veil into a human rights or gender equality issue. It would not be entirely ludicrous to suggest that wearers of the burqa suffer fewer cataracts, being "free-er" from the sun's deadly UV rays, for example.

    No, i was talking about forcing freedom, it was a direct reply to this question

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Is it right to force people to embrace freedom?

    I replied to the OP in my first post, if you look at it you may get a clue as to where i am comming from.
    However, i do believe a large amount of muslim women are oppressed.... but not all.
    I know of (Islamic) towns in Africa, for example, and they are far more "equal" than a lot of my non-muslim big city neighbours.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  5. #25
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    For the creation of a safer society, they MAY be on the right track, though I imagine that if this is truly the case, one would have heard reports of numerous Muslim female gangs robbing French banks from town to town, gleefully hiding from the prosecution behind the guise of anonymity.
    Well, yes. Doesn't this indicate that this is not the true issue at all then; therefore unlikely to contribute to future public safety in any meaningful manner?
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

  6. #26
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    No, i was talking about forcing freedom, it was a direct reply to this question by Morgan Le Fey

    "Is it right to force people to embrace freedom?"


    I replied to the OP in my first post, if you look at it you may get a clue as to where i am comming from.
    However, i do believe a large amount of muslim women are oppressed.... but not all.
    I know of (Islamic) towns in Africa, for example, and they are far more "equal" than a lot of my non-muslim big city neighbours.
    I admit a relatively strong bias, living in a largely non-Muslim community, with only a select few representatives of the faith to make clear their opinion on the matter: That it IS a violation of their rights to deny them their choice of apparel. These are largely college-aged females devoid of any male suppression, or at the very least on equal grounds with their non-Muslim female peers regarding gender equality, so I take their word for it.

  7. #27
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    I admit a relatively strong bias, living in a largely non-Muslim community, with only a select few representatives of the faith to make clear their opinion on the matter: That it IS a violation of their rights to deny them their choice of apparel. These are largely college-aged females devoid of any male suppression, or at the very least on equal grounds with their non-Muslim female peers regarding gender equality, so I take their word for it.
    My personal experiences have been somewhat different from yours. Do these college aged females who are devoid of male suppression wear the full face veil?
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  8. #28
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    My personal experiences have been somewhat different from yours. Do these college aged females who are devoid of male suppression wear the full face veil?
    Not full face, no. They like their hijab just fine.

  9. #29
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    I don't like this.

    We criticize cultures and religions for dictating what people can and cannot wear and then turn around and do likewise?

    What happens when the husbands who refuse to let their wives out without a burqa now refuse to let their wives out of the house AT ALL?

    What happens when a woman who is so used to wearing the burqa is afraid to go out of the house without it?


    Now, punishing males for forcing them to wear it is a different matter, but that would be very difficult to enforce.

    I would also venture a guess that this is more about being anti-Muslim than it is about being pro-Woman. What if they choose to ban the hijab next or the keffiyeh?
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  10. #30
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I don't like this.

    We criticize cultures and religions for dictating what people can and cannot wear and then turn around and do likewise?

    What happens when the husbands who refuse to let their wives out without a burqa now refuse to let their wives out of the house AT ALL?

    What happens when a woman who is so used to wearing the burqa is afraid to go out of the house without it?


    Now, punishing males for forcing them to wear it is a different matter, but that would be very difficult to enforce.
    Hypocrisy is perhaps half of what makes us human. The other half is composed of everything that remains.

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