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  1. #281
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post

    Synapse, are you in training to be a space cadet yourself by any chance?

    People are agreeing and disagreeing, but this is SO trivial it comes close to fluffing the thread. Could you at least TRY to be a bit more coherent, abstain from making incredibly superficial analogies which are not reasoned through properly, and show that you've read the thread and understood the content? Thx



    :rolli:
    I understand the content of the thread. I disagree with your stance.

    You know religion is a funny belief. When you practice something from the start of course that belief, judgment, peer pressure, culture, tradition, consensus trance, society are influencing the habits and anxieties of what seems right to them. When a habit that is lifelong, removing something that has been learned as a traditional norm per say will leave a sense of exposure, apprehension and fear. Then the habit manifests as part of the subconscious reality and becomes automatic. But in their culture they did not have a choice, rather it was decided for them from birth.

    Its like a lot of things that are or aren't acceptable or rewarded in society. Now the stigma and bias that is attached in such cultures is the opposite, shame. So then a lady who doesn't wear a burqa in an Islam society is shamed. Do you believe that kind of bias goes away just because they are living in a western society? It is easier to don the Burqa because its the least resistance, they in effect submit to their conditioned value system that is in place. Its incredibly psychological. As much as a woman in a western culture wouldn't be caught dead without make up in public in some ways.

    Would France or any other country imposing such a law help. Yes and No. yes because it creates a new set of habits, no because the bias would be there from their upbringing, family, peers, the religion they are part of and now the new society they are part of if they wear it etc. The pressure builds up like that, its unfortunate how much belief systems integrate into the way people think.

    France as a culture are doing this out of a political as well as a social reason on their part and good on them for trying.

    Being reasonable and rational are two very different things Ragashree. France is being reasonable, the energy that this kind of issue brings forth is telling.

    The value attachment to the Burqa for the women is so high now that without it they would feel vulnerable and devalued because their self perception has been altered significantly. Indeed, because then in their own peer group they would be judged by other women and threatened by other men, as a subtle form of coercion, persuasion that it is a necessity on religious grounds, hardly cultural.

    Wearing coverings like that however is just like putting somebody in a basement all their lives, they'll adjust and find it comforting and normal. Once they learn it isn't normal their automatic script would tend to hide anyway because that is what they have known all their lives. Some things remain taboo, of course if you ask women who are influenced by their peer groups they will say that they like it. That is their world, that is what they've grown up with, that is what they know from the start. It is now so deeply entrenched that it is a shame to go without it and that is a shame.

    Hay you know if it takes my father and brother to persuade me to do something against my will in a few hours then imagine how easy it is to do that to a woman who isn't wearing a Burqa within their social groups.

  2. #282
    sophiloist Kaizer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I've never heard of there being a difference and it doesn't make logical sense. Are you implying you think nudity is banned because it increases rape?
    Do you think the veil then decreases rape? so women are "asking for it" by dressing more scantily?

    Really, it's semi-rhetorical but also semi-genuine. I don't understand why one law is ok and one not, they seem like the same thing to me.

    Do you have the numbers?
    & you've drawn the conclusions, while I'm still asking questions, and I want to add to the discussion aspect of this thread, in this case your point.
    So got stats?
    The answer must be in the attempt
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  3. #283
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Can you elaborate on this further Peguy, particularly the bold? I get the general vibe of what you're saying but more details are necessary. Maybe an article?
    Here's an article that gives a rough summary of Tocqueville's arguments.
    Does Democracy Need Religion?

  4. #284
    Sniffles
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    Rather than start another thread that deals with the pretty much the same issue:
    Syria bans full Islamic face veils at universities - Yahoo! News

  5. #285
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    *ranting*
    You are being tiresome and patronising. Again.
    There is nothing wrong with my reading comprehension, so there is no need to pick apart articles that *I* have posted to assist me with that. Thanks awfully. We simply come to different conclusions in this matter.
    Viva la difference! I say. Perhaps you would be better served directing your energies at a more impressionable audience?

    Given that you're approaching this from a purely ideological standpoint, are only interested in your validating your own pre-existing beliefs, and have no real interest in the opinions of the people whose welfare you claim to be supporting (see below) this is scarcely surprising.
    If that is your stance, then I wonder why you still bother to engage. You are passionate, but you do not persuade. Also, verbosity is not a virtue. Please stop repeating yourself. If you have anything to say about the virtues of burqa wearing, please do so, that's what the thread is for - presenting both sides of the debate. Not for ramming your opinions down the throats of others. Yes, irony is having quite the time of it in this thread.

    You've gone one better here; you've not only explicitly stated that you consider Muslim women incapable of making their own decisions, but in the process have compared them to a farmyard animal with a brain the size of a thumbnail.
    I have done nothing of the kind. There is little empirical data about people kept in cages (ethics committees tend to frown on that kind of thing). I was going to talk about concentration camp survivors, but the chicken in a cage analogy is as good as any. You need to stop getting hung up on analogies used for illustrative purposes. It is disingenuous of you.

    Let me give you another: if someone wants to walk about covered in excrement, then I'm going to call them a loony. Whether they do it out of religious devotion or just pure lunacy. And if a man in a white van drives up and bundles them into the back, I'd believe it served the interests of both the individual and the community.

    I do find the stance you're taking in wanting to "liberate" them incredibly ironic though.
    I have made no such claims. I merely find that I am in favour of the decision of the French government to outlaw a degrading and dehumanizing practice, rather than bow to those gods of political correctness that you seem to worship. Such are the dictates of my conscience, you of course, are free to listen to yours.

    And before you interject "but what about the muslim women whose consciences (or whose husbands' consciences) dictate that they should never show their face in public"? I say they need to wake up and smell that fantastic French coffee. Unveiled.
    Alternatively, there are no shortage of places in the world that aren't populated by infidels. Choose your poison.


    ETA. Another thought occurs to me. This could actually benefit the moderate Muslim community (who represent the overwhelming majority, at least in France). When the cultural abomination that is the burqa is properly divorced from the the practice of Islam, it can only elevate the status of that faith in the eyes of a liberal majority.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #286
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    An interesting perspective on these new laws in France is here:

    SpringerLink - Journal Article

    Abstract: In France the distinction between the secular and religious domains is the result of a slow evolutionary process of secularization over a period of two centuries. A key element was the law of separation between churches and State in 1905. Secularization also produced a pluralistic socio-cultural system, which permits an increase in religious supply, issued from outside or inside existent churches. The religious landscape became complex due to the growth of certain groups. Nowadays, efforts to regulate Muslim communities are leading towards a new tendency of state control of religious activities in two fields, namely places of worship and school activities. Religious plurality is recognized by the State in the name of the freedom of beliefs. Private organizations are used for the public practice of religion and easily obtain places of worship. However, this has necessitated a large number of regional or local arrangements. In the name of the freedom of thought, the school system of the Republic is ensured by public schools, or by Catholic or Jewish schools, subject to strict public control. In this matter, there is only minimal tolerance of other denominations.
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
    — Richard P. Feynman

    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
    author unknown

  7. #287
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    On a lighter note:

    Darth Burqa made me lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #288
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    You are being tiresome and patronising. Again.
    And what is consistently refusing to respond to what someone actually says, when they are continuing to engage with you and deal with your arguments, in detail? Calling them names as you're doing here does not constitute a meaningful response. Can you stop trying to turn this personal, please. Thanks.

    Taking it to a personal level and using vague accusations of "ranting" doesn't help your own case either, just thought I'd point out. It makes it seem like you don't have a real counter-argument.

    There is nothing wrong with my reading comprehension, so there is no need to pick apart articles that *I* have posted to assist me with that. Thanks awfully.
    Sorry, I'm now not supposed to pick apart articles you have posted to support your own viewpoint, and arrive at a different conclusion, because your view is the only correct one? Or what? I'm treating this as a debate, not a forum for confirming your predetermined views. I'm free to interpret information you have posted as I wish. I consider my interpretation to be a reasonably accurate representation of her views, which instead of discussing, you continue ignoring, in favour of your own.

    You're also free to interpret any information I've posted as you wish. Actually, I'd prefer it if you did that and tried to construct some kind of coherent argument against it - if you can find one. I'm personally getting tired of you repeating the same old stereotypes about the barbarity, ignorance, delusion, etc of Muslims in general and Burqa wearing women in particular. It's not fitting the evidence that's been posted either, so you're having to fall back on repeating the same old ideological prejudices over and over; you have little else at your disposal.

    We simply come to different conclusions in this matter.
    My conclusion is that you believe Muslim women who choose to follow their faith in a particular way to be incapable of thinking for themselves, therefore requiring someone else to decide for them. This is despite the abundant evidence that has been posted to the contrary.

    Viva la difference! I say. Perhaps you would be better served directing your energies at a more impressionable audience?
    Says the person who gleefully engages the naturalistic fallacy, posts pictures of child suicide bombers in response to carefully reasoned posts to try to provoke false associations, etc? Right, got you! :rolli:

    You are passionate, but you do not persuade.
    What on earth is that supposed to mean? I already know we hold different views. Ok, I'll try one of my own:

    You are dismissive, but you do not engage.

    How's that?

    Also, verbosity is not a virtue.
    Neither is closed-mindedness.

    Had I not been confronted with it, I would not have needed to go to such lengths to try to get the point across. I'm sorry to say that your blindness to perspectives other than your own is seeming increasingly like a willful one. I had thought it might have stemmed from lack of knowledge. My mistake, perhaps.

    Please stop repeating yourself. If you have anything to say about the virtues of burqa wearing, please do so, that's what the thread is for - presenting both sides of the debate. Not for ramming your opinions down the throats of others.
    Please stop refusing to engage with my argument with ridiculous wholesale dismissals, excuses, outright refusals to read, personal attacks (which is what it's seemingly now come to on your part) etc. Then I wouldn't have to repeat myself.

    Thread title: "France Votes to ban Burqua." Op: "What say ye?" Nothing about having to post arguments that demonstrate the virtues of Burqa wearing. Morgan, what ARE you talking about?

    I'm answering your side of the debate, you're refusing to engage with mine. Why is requesting that you engage instead of merely making dismissive statements of little relevance "ramming your opinions down the throats of others?"

    Yes, irony is having quite the time of it in this thread.
    Isn't it?

    you've not only explicitly stated that you consider Muslim women incapable of making their own decisions, but in the process have compared them to a farmyard animal with a brain the size of a thumbnail.
    I have done nothing of the kind.
    Yes, you have. It gets extremely tiresome tiresome quoting you to show that you have indeed said what you said, then being accused of being too verbose :rolli: but once again:

    Quote:
    I've encountered this kind of distorted thinking over and over again, such that I no longer accept that people always know what is in their best interests.
    Quote:
    When battery chickens are released from their cages, they don't embrace their freedom immediately - it takes them a while to adjust, which is the case wherever an animal is conditioned to unnatural living conditions.
    Analogy is in no way related to comparison? Did you want to nitpick over this to continue evading the implications of your own position, or were you just going to continue taking the safe way out by ignoring what I say?

    There is little empirical data about people kept in cages (ethics committees tend to frown on that kind of thing). I was going to talk about concentration camp survivors, but the chicken in a cage analogy is as good as any. You need to stop getting hung up on analogies used for illustrative purposes. It is disingenuous of you.

    Let me give you another: if someone wants to walk about covered in excrement, then I'm going to call them a loony. Whether they do it out of religious devotion or just pure lunacy. And if a man in a white van drives up and bundles them into the back, I'd believe it served the interests of both the individual and the community.
    Maybe you could stop displaying your extraordinary contempt for belief systems other than your own by your choice of analogy, and focus on the specifics of the situation? I believe that would serve the interests of debate better. You seem primarily interested in caricaturing and drawing superficial analogies to deflect from the actual issues. Do you even WANT to engage with the reality?

    I have made no such claims. I merely find that I am in favour of the decision of the French government to outlaw a degrading and dehumanizing practice, rather than bow to the gods of political correctness, whom you seem to worship. Such are the dictates of my conscience, you of course, are free to listen to yours.
    Utterly unproven in the context of this debate. This is your personal ideology, based on what I regard as stereotypes. I really don't think you're interested in anything beyond it though, from what I've seen you post.

    Utterly wrong, Morgan, you don't seem able to distinguish accurately between what you characterise as "Political correctness", which is the unthinking tolerance of the actions of others to avoid conflict, and a rational debate on whether or not certain things should be tolerated, taking into account available evidence. The latter is what I believe in and what I'm trying to get you to participate in. Throwing gobbets of the same tired old ideology at me and making wild accusations and presumptions about what I believe doesn't contribute to that.

    And before you interject "but what about the muslim women whose consciences (or whose husbands' consciences) dictate that they should never show their face in public"? I say they need to wake up and smell that fantastic French coffee. Unveiled.
    You're still stuck on this false assumption, which has been unveiled (ha ha) multiple times in multiple different ways, not least by the woman you quoted.

    Alternatively, there are no shortage of places in the world that aren't populated by infidels. Choose your poison.
    "If they don't like it, send 'em back to where they came from!" eh? Anyone else saying that who you can think of? :rolli:
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

  9. #289
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    "If they don't like it, send 'em back to where they came from!" eh? Anyone else saying that who you can think of? :rolli:
    Pray tell do enlighten us.

  10. #290
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chi'xer View Post
    Do you have the numbers?
    & you've drawn the conclusions, while I'm still asking questions, and I want to add to the discussion aspect of this thread, in this case your point.
    So got stats?
    Dude, YOU are the one who "subtly" implied that nudity is banned because it increases rape. Since this is not an established fact, the burden of proof is now on YOU.

    You can't turn it around on me and ask me to do your dirty work. If you make an unlikely claim, do your own research.

    Btw, I think wearing red clothes causes cancer. Do you have the stats to prove me wrong? Well then.

    Sorry for the . But still nobody has tried to give a rationale for why banning nudity is ok but banning veils is not ok.
    -end of thread-

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