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  1. #271
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Did you read the whole article?
    She doesn't disagree. She did a complete 180.
    Ok then thats just kind of stupid, but it still does not constitute her being irrational, since she have learned to accept the impractical and negative aspects of wearing one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    There is no rational position which can justify cutting oneself off from the world of experience by covering oneself from head to toe in uncomfortable and impractical reams of fabric.
    Of course there is, but i am afraid that we are stepping into the realm of philosophy.

    But to put it briefly the agreed term of Rationality is to: Reason consistently within the framework of the goal of a principle or an objective. It's not necessarily logical or truthful in valid terms. Everyone rationalizes really, but the results do not have to be corresponding with reality. Rationality is usually reasoning that is relative to the motivating principle. Which is why loonies can rationalize too. It doesn't unfortunately have the system of fallacies that formal logic has, since it is not agreed upon by a formal consensus. So you can only discredit their reasoning if they are being inconsistent with their idea or principle, but not in the case of being fallacious or lacking valid premises.
    Last edited by ColonelGadaafi; 07-21-2010 at 05:28 AM.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  2. #272
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post
    Of course there is, but i am afraid that we are stepping into the realm of philosophy.

    Let's not. I'm sure you understand my meaning without getting bogged down in semantics and technicalities - present it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #273
    XES 5231311252's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage
    I've talked to a few women wearing the burqa about the burqa. They would either say it is valued within the family to wear such or they are used to it and rather not go without it. This was when I was in egypt. Either way I don't think these women want to take off the burqa. Whether or not they were raised upon it, it is in their value system to not go without it and so they feel happier with it on.
    And I can guarantee that there are just as many who want it banned.

    Muslim woman presses French for burqa ban - World news - Europe - France - msnbc.com


    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    ragashree's article provides a huge perspective shift here - that in the Western world, the body of a woman is often commercially exploited; and that this sort of "oppression" is the result of our adherence to our culture.
    These women put themselves in these situations and they can take themselves out of them. They have a choice and whichever choice they make, it's still their choice.

    This culture maybe viewed as "brainwashing" by Muslims, just as you might view theirs as "brainwashing".
    It doesn't matter what Muslims view as brain washing because France is not a Muslim country.

    Who are you to say that the burqa, or any other headscarf, is an instrument of intolerance when it prevents the sexist images you see on television and the internet every day, and when you are intolerant of it?
    Again, it's France and the French have all the say in the world on what will be allowed and what won't be allowed in their country. You lot keep bringing up the "oppression" of Western women and it just sounds like a ridiculous comparison. There are just as many sexist images in the Muslim world as there are anywhere else in the world.

    Since many Muslims are probably more knowledgeable of Western culture, while Westerners don't have the same circumspect, I would have to say that they have more leverage in determining this case with more objectivity.
    Yes, you'd have to say that because I do not agree. They have just as many misconceptions about Western culture as Western culture has about them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burymecloser
    You are welcome in France, but if you live here you must live as we live and respect the traditions that we hold dear. Does that means you must speak French, and you must be Catholic? Perhaps anyone found to be speaking another language will face a substantial fine, and non-Catholic religious services will be strictly prohibited.
    Why wouldn't you respect their way of life or speak their language, you're the one who voluntarily moved to their country.

    Millions of Muslims already live in France. If those people are forced to violate their religious principles or abandon their homes, that is a clear violation of their human rights.
    Your rights within a society are determined by the society and the society is not obligated to give you any rights. The only thing that's guaranteed in life is death.

    This would be like prohibiting the wearing of crosses, and then claiming that it wasn't aimed at Christians, because nobody else is allowed to wear crosses, either. Well, fine, but it only affects Christians, because no one else wears them.
    False.

    I agree with ragashree that we have to be very careful here about valuing one set of cultural values over another.
    It's no shock that France prefers French values and it's hypocritical to tell them to do otherwise. If I go to Iran, I know I have to cover up and there will be no debate about it. It's their cultural preference and as I said with France, it's no shock. Do any of you remember the British woman who was jailed in Sudan for naming a teddy bear Muhammad? Do you think that was just? I didn't, but it's their land and their rules. If you ask France to abandon their values, it's only fair to ask Muslim countries to do the same. It's only fair that they dish out the same tolerance, but I bet it won't happen.
    “'Fuck', I think. What a beautiful word. If I could say only one thing for the rest of my life, that would be it.”

  4. #274
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    My dislike for that attire has nothing to do with misunderstanding and everything to do with conflicting ideology.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    One has to be able to assess such matters objectively.
    Which, incidentally, is just what you've refused to do in relation to examining the actual issues surrounding a ban, you've simply trumpteted the superiority of your own ideology to the high heavens, displayed a lack of knowledge of or interest in certain key areas (which are vital for understanding the issues correctly from the Islamic perspective) and come up with various, very thin, excuses for not engaging with any of my previous posts on the topic. I've been engaging throughout and responding to your posts. Speaking of which:

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    And I don't. Stalemate. Your posts are bordering on the tl;dr for this INTP to take the time to respond to every point.
    Given that you've used two previous excuses for not responding, I presume you're scraping the bottom of the barrel now by claiming they were too long to read in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    If you are, you're going to have to do a better job, because I haven't found any of your arguments / articles persuasive, so far.
    Given that you're approaching this from a purely ideological standpoint, are only interested in your validating your own pre-existing beliefs, and have no real interest in the opinions of the people whose welfare you claim to be supporting (see below) this is scarcely surprising.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Anyone think it's natural for a human being to cover their body from head to toe?
    This is an appeal to the naturalistic fallacy, I just thought I'd point out. It's not at the best of times particularly useful for informing ethics. I'm sure you'd be the first to take issue with ethics being deduced from questionable biological or sociocultural norms if the topic was one where these norms did not support your position, such as genetic determinsim or gender roles in society.

    Is it "natural" to wear clothes at all, let alone favour one kind over another? Is it "natural" to drive cars, to take pharmaceuticals when we're sick, to go to work? Is it "natural" to have laws that regulate human conduct at all?

    Or, is it "natural" to fine and humilate people for what you percieve as a misdemeanour, but they regard as an integral part of their culture? Who gets to define "natural" in those circumstances, and why should they have a monopoly on it? No, I don't seriously expect an answer, just pointing out what you're doing.

    Honestly, this is one of the weakest fallacies in the book. I know it will appeal to some people who don't understand how to think critically, but this is just playing to the gallery on your part, like with the suicide bomber post earlier. At least I didn't have to go to the trouble of showing why that was a false comparison, as someone else beat me to it.

    I've encountered this kind of distorted thinking over and over again, such that I no longer accept that people always know what is in their best interests.
    When battery chickens are released from their cages, they don't embrace their freedom immediately - it takes them a while to adjust, which is the case wherever an animal is conditioned to unnatural living conditions.
    You know, I was concerned that there were some very patronising views being held towards Muslim women and their ability to think for themselves by those who believe that their own ideological vision of "liberation" should be forced upon them whether they like it or not. I was concerned that though they were concerned that it may be dehumanising (which probably has some truth if it is being forced upon them, though this is of questionable relevance in western society), there might also be a tendency to infantalise, to deny them their right to exercise personal autonomy as sane and rational adults who can make their own life choices.

    You've gone one better here; you've not only explicitly stated that you consider Muslim women incapable of making their own decisions, but in the process have compared them to a farmyard animal with a brain the size of a thumbnail. Morgan, THAT, I can assure you, is dehumanising Muslim women to a quite alarming degree. Those with such flagrant disregard for the autonomy and capabilities of other human beings, particularly those who are not only adult, but presumably rational and sane until proven otherwise, have NO business presuming to know what is best for them. NONE, not the slightest.

    I do find the stance you're taking in wanting to "liberate" them incredibly ironic though. :rolli:
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

  5. #275

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    Britain has already said it would not ban burqas. Immigration minister, Damian Green, said it would be "unBritish" and "undesirable".

    He did add that the French were a "aggressively secular state" and that it had little to do with their immigration policies.
    Unbritish?! They make me laugh, you know that they'd have annihilated your blood line if you'd worn highland clan tartan after the battle of Culloden, while Cromwell was in charge crucifixes and rosary beads could earn you summary execution or extradition to Connaught in Ireland.

    Contemporary UK conservative politicians do not want the state to be responsible for a single extra thing than it is already, especially given that it means they have to accept liability in some shape or form.

  6. #276
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    You're ignoring three absolutely critical facts here.

    1) The West is not the Middle East, and is not ruled by Islamists; there are no laws mandated by the state to proscribe the wearing of an item of clothing; there are, however, laws which prevent them from public harassment for failing to wear it. Any compulsion to wear it is therefore taking place largely at a private level, in the home and within tight-knit communities. The issue becomes therefore one of engagement with those communities.

    2) You believe, or you know? I don't know myself, but I've seen considerable anecdotal evidence, including on this thread, and have some personal experience to validate, that it is perfectly possible for Muslim women to dress this way voluntarily and for reason of personal belief, not being forced by anyone. There are reasons in Islamic scripture why this may be so, and they translate into currents in Islamic thinking.

    3) Is the issue an item of clothing, or the image of oppression that you mentally associate with it? Banning it here will have no effect on the oppression there, except possibly to help validate it by advertising that the West is implacably opposed to Islamic culture. Here, I was questioning the effectiveness of existing laws against domestic violence both for culturally indigenous women and in the Muslim communities where these are not integrated, because banning a piece of clothing, it itself, will make no difference to whatever oppression is taking place.



    Any Western nation where you think this is a good idea, and will potentially achieve something productive.


    So do I, I suspect their true motivations are nationalistic and xenophobic, and that the rhetoric about liberating Muslim women is a sop to those who would otherwise be inclined to take a stand against oppression.



    *See above*


    You could always ask should you happen to meet one. It might be easier for you than for me. I'm sure they can speak on this for themselves if they have an opinion. I'm not, at any rate, aware that there are any particular restrictions on Muslim women, veiled or otherwise, speaking to other women of whatever persuasion, except for any restrictions they may put upon themselves.


    You haven't done anything to define when someone is being brainwashed though, just repeated your own beliefs about gender roles within Islam, which amounts to your conviction that they are misogynistic and therefore wrong. That's an interesting question which I'm tempted to elaborate on, but also a separate debate.

    What I'm asking is whether you think there is any way to accurately establish whether a Muslim woman who accepts a certain dress code, her gender role as defined by the faith, etc, is so brainwashed that she is to be considered unable to think and act for herself, effectively non compus mentis with regard for being able to stand up for her own interests and make her own decisions about what matters to her and what doesn't. And that therefore those of us who do know better must make her decisions for her? If we can't definitively establish that she isn't thinking for herself effectively, this presumption seems to be an infantalising one, which I would ask you to lay side by side with your belief that wearing full veil is dehumanising.


    Well, you can talk about what you like, I was specifically referring to Muslim women who chose from what appears to be their own free will to adhere to extreme forms of the Islamic dress code, do they typically live in inhumane conditions in the more liberal Islamic societies or in the Western nations?

    It's a separate issue to whether women are forced to in certain other societies that are tribal, riven by war, under the sway of militant Islamism, or a combination of these. The only way it would conflate to a significant degree is if all the women wearing it were recent immigrants from those countries, but many of them are born and bred in the countries that they live in, and a significant proportion (disproportionate to the number of women born Muslims who choose to wear them) are Western converts to the faith. Are Western women who chose to CONVERT living under oppression, fear, and easily liable to brainwashing?


    Again, is women wearing these garments in the West directly related to oppression and fear, and will preventing them from wearing them in public have any effect on the sources of that oppression and fear?


    I think they have to interpret it a symbolic level to avoid relating it to the practical realities it signally fails to solve, or even really engage with. :rolli:
    Ok so i was working on answering this question by question and point by point with links etc...however i have been thrown into a tangent. Namely on correlating the rise of radical islam in the uk with the increase in Muslim women wearing Burqa's. It seems incredibly likely but i am researching it so it may take a while. It may even be another thread. Anyway to derail further i'll be away for a week tomorrow night so don't wait up
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  7. #277
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5231311252 View Post
    And I can guarantee that there are just as many who want it banned.

    Muslim woman presses French for burqa ban - World news - Europe - France - msnbc.com
    My statement was not generalised to the muslim population. I was talking specifically about those women who would continuously wear the burqa.

  8. #278
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    This piece in the Telegraph is by a British woman who opposes a possible ban in the UK. To me, it reads as a pitiful confession to being "broken in" as a teenager in Saudi Arabia to a habit that someone with her British (Muslim) upbringing initially railed against as humiliating and degrading. Eventually she came to see it as a handy cover-up when she didn't want to have to think about what to wear or decided to go out in her sweats....

    She says "To force a female to remove her veil is just as subjugating as forcing her to cover." And yet, by her own admission, "Given the choice, I would never have embraced the niqab". She was coerced into a degrading position which she eventually embraced in order to feel some measure of self-esteem. It's a pretty classic case of the ego defence mechanism behind Stockholm syndrome. Note that she doesn't dress this way in the UK, despite being a practicing Muslim, reemphasizing the fact this is more about national culture than religion.

    "Implicit in any law that proscribes women’s dress lies the most sinister, ideologically myopic assumption that a woman cannot be trusted not to succumb to pressure to dress a certain way." It's quite sad that even someone who has been well-educated in a liberal country, isn't able to recognize how those pressures have molded her own thinking. I find her rationalizations completely bizarre, but the human mind is a curious, and seldom rational, place.

    I'll quote the whole article, for balance.
    Thanks for posting the article, I really appreciate it
    (I am not being sarcastic, in case you're wondering).

    She makes what I thought was a plain case, largely in agreement with the stance I've been taking on this.
    The thing is, Morgan, you're not getting it at all, because you persistently ignore cultural context and project your own expectations on to others. I will try yet again to get this across:

    To begin: I completely disagree with the way she was forced to dress in the deluded nation that is Saudi Arabia, period. She was being forced to dress that way against her will, and humilliated in the process. She completely disagrees with it as well, as I'm sure you do, so perhaps at least we can start from a position of agreement this time. She's rationalised her experience to a degree as a coping mechanism, you've got this correct, but, and this is a Crucial distinction, this has NOT caused a signigficant change in her views. They're entirely rational when they're looked at from the correct perspective.

    She's not saying that due to her horrible experience, she now thinks it's a good idea. She is saying that she is against the USE OF COERCION IN TELLING WOMEN WHAT THEY SHOULD WEAR. She does not support being told either to wear a veil, or to take it off, but believes it should be a free choice for the woman concerned. The unpleasantness of her own experience, in being forced to dress a certain way, has informed her views on that. Here we go:

    Implicit in any law that proscribes women’s dress lies the most sinister, ideologically myopic assumption that a woman cannot be trusted not to succumb to pressure to dress a certain way.
    You are making this assumption yourself. You've made this clear, and I have made plain what I think of it. Now she has made plain what she thinks of it, which appears to coincide closely with my own views. Worth bearing in mind, in view of my earlier comments?

    In the same way that Muslim countries accuse the hyper-sexualised West of corrupting their women, European societies cannot fathom that a woman would want to wear a niqab or burka unless it is attributable to some brute influence either by a man or general social coercion. In that sense, I do not see a potential ban on the burka in the UK as any different to the oppression in Saudi Arabia in terms of how it assumes that the way a woman dresses is never really down to her.
    To force a female to remove her veil is just as subjugating as forcing her to cover.
    Subtitute "European societies" with "Morgan Le Fay, and certain others on this forum", and (though I say this more in hope than expectation) you may see what I mean about the need for a perspective shift.

    She is opposed to the oppression of women by means of enforcing a dress code - any dress code - on them against their will.

    Note that now she is in Britain, as I have repeatedly tried to make clear the significance of, but you have failed to see, she CAN choose to dress as she pleases. (Within the constraints of the faith that she chooses to follow, it is neither of our business to be telling her how to believe.) Therefore, while she remains in the Uk, it is to her, as an educated woman who knows her own mind, a non-issue; because she posesses RIGHTS in Britain which in Saudi Arabia she does not have.

    The fact that she posesses these rights allows her to make the choice of what to wear. She wishes to retain these rights, to choose what and what not to wear, as a point of principle (the garment in question is after all part of her culture, whether she is particularly fond of it personally or not). She does not wish to have her rights of self-determination taken away in this matter. Unless her simple right to self-determination is causing harm, I do not see a good reason to take it away from her.

    A mix of Islamophobia, busy-bodying feminism and resurgent nationalist sentiment has contributed to this demonisation of a minority of Muslim women.
    An unholy trinity, n'est-ce pas?
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  9. #279
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    Banning the burqa is a small price to pay for advancing the equality of women in the long run.

  10. #280
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    They can send them to the U.S. where they can be used to provide anonymity under the growing web of surveillance cameras.

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