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  1. #261
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    The French have a right to vote to do as they please and the immigrants have a right to adapt or go away. Ultimately its up to the French voters. I can see this being repealed in another few years though as the muslim populations get larger and larger.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  2. #262
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    We are not living in the middle ages anymore or outer space or the ocean, unless the women are training to be astronauts maybe deep sea explorers, somehow I doubt their religion factors that into the equation...often!

    Its like saying you have to wear a paper bag over your head for life...would wearing a paper bag in western culture mean a positive thing? Then obviously wearing a burqa means respect, dignity and integrity doesn't it?

    Synapse, are you in training to be a space cadet yourself by any chance?

    People are agreeing and disagreeing, but this is SO trivial it comes close to fluffing the thread. Could you at least TRY to be a bit more coherent, abstain from making incredibly superficial analogies which are not reasoned through properly, and show that you've read the thread and understood the content? Thx

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    The French have a right to vote to do as they please and the immigrants have a right to adapt or go away. Ultimately its up to the French voters. I can see this being repealed in another few years though as the muslim populations get larger and larger.
    :rolli:
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

  3. #263
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    I wish I'd have been around when this thread started.... I work with French colleagues and majored in French studies in college and I would probably have things to say.....but I can't be bothered to read all 27 pages now!

    Suffice it to say, the French are very protective of their culture, which is fine to a certain extent, but I think they sometimes go about it in the wrong ways. Language policy after the Revolution was one example. This policy regarding burqas is another, imho.

  4. #264
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    They might have been seperate but they wherent equal, not entirely as a result of oppression either. I'm basing that view on my knowledge of Marcus Garvey and others. Not "old white guy" prejudice or anything.
    Sorry just to make this clear I was drawing that parallel for a reason, I know they weren't equal, that was kinda my (fuzzy) sarcastic point lol. A little OT, I just had to respond to that.
    -end of thread-

  5. #265
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    All I can say is that these misunderstandings are due to the images evoked by the wearing of a burqa and other head scarfs. People see a certain image that correlates oppression with religion, and then leap to the conclusion that one is somehow causal of the other.
    And what are you doing if not leaping to a conclusion?
    My dislike for that attire has nothing to do with misunderstanding and everything to do with conflicting ideology.

    Who are you to say that the burqa, or any other headscarf, is an instrument of intolerance when it prevents the sexist images you see on television and the internet every day, and when you are intolerant of it?
    Who are you talking to?

    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post


    That's much better would you say, she can finally get some vitamin D
    She can finally express herself, show some emotion, body language, colour, energy, vibrancy, live, all those things that somehow got locked away, you know like a smile, a grin, a frown, anger, sadness, happiness, a personality, a wink and a blink!



    If women are conditioned to wear their hijab's and burqa's since birth to hide their face and bodies so comprehensively do you think it is oppression or freedom? What is liberation and what is freedom in this context really?
    Yes, thank you for reminding me of this study.

    Middle Eastern women may have vitamin D deficiency | Reuters

    When battery chickens are released from their cages, they don't embrace their freedom immediately - it takes them a while to adjust, which is the case wherever an animal is conditioned to unnatural living conditions.
    Anyone think it's natural for a human being to cover their body from head to toe?

    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post

    Synapse, are you in training to be a space cadet yourself by any chance?

    People are agreeing and disagreeing, but this is SO trivial it comes close to fluffing the thread. Could you at least TRY to be a bit more coherent, abstain from making incredibly superficial analogies which are not reasoned through properly, and show that you've read the thread and understood the content? Thx
    I disagree. His points are at least as valid as anyone else's. Your pomposity, however, is becoming trying. Your thoughtful contributions are welcome. Your personal attacks are not, kthx.

    You're still wriggling out of the burden of proof issue by the way. I still think it's on your side.
    And I don't. Stalemate. Your posts are bordering on the tl;dr for this INTP to take the time to respond to every point. I'm not trying to persuade anyone, just opening the floor for discussion. If you are, you're going to have to do a better job, because I haven't found any of your arguments / articles persuasive, so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #266
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    I do not see that banning this will achieve anything but further disharmony and hope that this does not follow through to other Western countries.
    Britain has already said it would not ban burqas. Immigration minister, Damian Green, said it would be "unBritish" and "undesirable".

    He did add that the French were a "aggressively secular state" and that it had little to do with their immigration policies.

  7. #267
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    Britain has already said it would not ban burqas. Immigration minister, Damian Green, said it would be "unBritish" and "undesirable".

    He did add that the French were a "aggressively secular state" and that it had little to do with their immigration policies.
    We are unlikely to ban the burqa here. But once the Islamists succeed in scattering body parts in our streets, all bets are off.

  8. #268
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    This piece in the Telegraph is by a British woman who opposes a possible ban in the UK. To me, it reads as a pitiful confession to being "broken in" as a teenager in Saudi Arabia to a habit that someone with her British (Muslim) upbringing initially railed against as humiliating and degrading. Eventually she came to see it as a handy cover-up when she didn't want to have to think about what to wear or decided to go out in her sweats....

    She says "To force a female to remove her veil is just as subjugating as forcing her to cover." And yet, by her own admission, "Given the choice, I would never have embraced the niqab". She was coerced into a degrading position which she eventually embraced in order to feel some measure of self-esteem. It's a pretty classic case of the ego defence mechanism behind Stockholm syndrome. Note that she doesn't dress this way in the UK, despite being a practicing Muslim, reemphasizing the fact this is more about national culture than religion.

    "Implicit in any law that proscribes women’s dress lies the most sinister, ideologically myopic assumption that a woman cannot be trusted not to succumb to pressure to dress a certain way." It's quite sad that even someone who has been well-educated in a liberal country, isn't able to recognize how those pressures have molded her own thinking. I find her rationalizations completely bizarre, but the human mind is a curious, and seldom rational, place.

    I'll quote the whole article, for balance.

    Burka ban: Why must I cast off the veil?

    By Nesrine Malik

    The first time I had to wear a niqab was a thoroughly unpleasant experience. My parents, originally from Sudan but living in London, had just moved to Saudi Arabia. Before we joined them, four black abayas (full-length cloaks) and niqabs (full face-veil) were dispatched to me and my three sisters.

    At the age of 18, the thought of covering my body in a shapeless black gown and hiding my face so that only my eyes would show was inconceivable. It was humiliating, violating, dehumanising. Upon donning the headpiece, my body language immediately changed, becoming apologetic, withdrawn and subdued. Wearing it seemed to empower all the men around me and put me firmly in my place as inferior.

    On landing in Saudi Arabia, women – all of whom were wearing the veil – were channelled into a separate line for processing. My eyes stung with tears of rage and shame. Most of all, I felt infantilised, stripped of the right to dress how I pleased due simply to the fact that I was a woman, and hence, purely a sexual object to be concealed lest it should inflame desire. For the first few days, it felt almost comical, like some absurd game of macabre fancy dress.
    On a practical level, it was cumbersome, hot and uncomfortable. Eating or drinking in public became a chore, as food has to be manoeuvred gingerly under the veil or taken abruptly in small bites. InSaudi’s overwhelming heat, temperatures regularly reach 45C and any physical outdoor activity, even walking, is out of the question. I became anti-social, hardly able to wait until I got home before tearing off the ghastly garb.

    The niqab and the burka are a particularly extreme interpretation of the Islamic requirement for modest dress, and were never part of my Muslim upbringing in London. Because of this, I did not feel particularly pious wearing them in Saudi. If anything, it seemed like a throwback to tribal, pre-Islamic times.

    Over the next three years, however, my opposition gradually eroded. Initially an ugly burden, the abaya and niqab became a comfort and, eventually, a delight. It was a relief not to have to think about what to wear.
    The burka can be the most versatile of capsule wardrobes. The uniform black costume has a charming egalitarianism about it, and is both a social and physical leveller. Once social status or physical beauty cannot be established, all sorts of hierarchies are flattened.
    Fashion-wise, it was not as insipid a garment as I had feared. When there is little option in what you can wear, the smallest details start to count. I realised upon closer inspection that there was a plethora of abayas for me to choose from. Subtly embellished gowns and veils could be found in Riyadh’s glamorous malls. If none suited, bespoke tailors executed your particular design and preference beautifully. Light fabrics and slim-line empire silhouettes rendered the uniform elegant and feminine – regal, even.
    Eye make-up and footwear took on extra significance. As the feet were the only part of the body one could legitimately flaunt, a good pedicure was not only necessary, it was an integral part of the ensemble. All of a woman’s sexuality resided in how she carried herself, and how groomed her extremities were. In that context, the outfit became empowering, enabling a reclamation of one’s sexuality by not fulfilling modern commercialised definitions of what makes a woman attractive.

    Ironically, Saudi Arabia did not feel a more chaste place. Indeed, imposing the niqab may have had the opposite effect, so starved were the two sexes of the flirtatious attention that we all take for granted in the West. I have never been so indiscriminately pursued by men. And I was therefore thankful for the anonymity the attire gave me – a privilege the men did not share. The niqab appeals to the voyeur in all of us, cosily secreted away behind a veil, but still able to view the world go by.

    In contrast to my earlier eagerness to rip off the abaya whenever in sanctum, I began to wear it when I did not have to. Now I live in the UK again and work for a private equity firm, I would never wear it to the office. But, as a fashionable 29-year-old, I sometimes pop it on to go to the corner shop rather than show the world my tracksuit bottoms.
    I’m not alone in finding the abaya a comfortable garment. On my return from Saudi Arabia, other women on my plane left it until a few minutes before landing to remove their cloaks and emerge from the washrooms without their niqab. Now when I fly back from seeing my parents in Saudi Arabia, I keep on the uniform for as long as is convenient. Immigration staff in the UK are so much more hostile to those who wear it.

    Given the choice, I would never have embraced the niqab. My initial teenage revulsion was inspired by the fact that it was mandatory. Implicit in any law that proscribes women’s dress lies the most sinister, ideologically myopic assumption that a woman cannot be trusted not to succumb to pressure to dress a certain way. In the same way that Muslim countries accuse the hyper-sexualised West of corrupting their women, European societies cannot fathom that a woman would want to wear a niqab or burka unless it is attributable to some brute influence either by a man or general social coercion. In that sense, I do not see a potential ban on the burka in the UK as any different to the oppression in Saudi Arabia in terms of how it assumes that the way a woman dresses is never really down to her.

    The French National Assembly’s vote to ban Islamic veils in public is the latest such measure taken by governments across Europe. Days after the Belgian parliament became the first in Europe to pass a bill banning Islamic veils, police in northern Italy fined a Muslim woman for wearing a niqab on her way to a mosque.
    In Britain, Conservative backbencher Philip Hollobone last week called for a burka ban, tabling a Private Members’ Bill that would make it illegal for anyone to cover their face in public.
    There is a deeply disturbing discourse developing in Europe, one that equates the niqab with Islamic radicalism, and which facilitates a witch-hunt of Muslims under the cover of concern for women – or “racism veiled as liberation”, as the writer Madeleine Bunting put it. There are indeed several ways in which Muslim women are oppressed, not best interpreted by what they wear.
    A mix of Islamophobia, busy-bodying feminism and resurgent nationalist sentiment has contributed to this demonisation of a minority of Muslim women. The niqab and burka are indeed powerful symbols and reminders of the ongoing fissures between the West and Islam. Indeed, it is understandable that something as final and ostensibly exclusionary as a face veil would be alienating. But surely that lies more in the realm of social inappropriateness? I would never permanently cover my face in the UK, but by the same token nor would I wear a mini-skirt in Dubai. Most people, men and women, self-regulate and dress in a way to conform to convention. To legislate against the extremes would be a highly intrusive extension of authority. To mobilise the mechanism of the state to tackle Islamic fundamentalism via cracking down on the face veil is not the answer. To force a female to remove her veil is just as subjugating as forcing her to cover.
    There is depressing similarity in the way different cultures view changes in women’s dress as the first harbinger of national invasion and subsumation. It is a heavy burden for women to bear. I sincerely hope that no 18-year-old Muslim girl will ever arrive in the UK and be forced to take off her niqab.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #269
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberries View Post
    it's relevant because women wear such garments in SA.
    Yes, but that's not good enough reason. You haven't proven any specific relationship between Saudi-Arabian practice of burqa and the one in Saudi-Arabia, which is fully necessary to the discussion. Since Burqa is not a universal practice for Muslim societies, it is very specific garment that has more to do with gender in certain socities rather then as a universal principle for muslims. The practice subjective.


    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan la Fay View Post
    This piece in the Telegraph is by a British woman who opposes a possible ban in the UK. To me, it reads as a pitiful confession to being "broken in" as a teenager in Saudi Arabia to a habit that someone with her British (Muslim) upbringing initially railed against as humiliating and degrading. Eventually she came to see it as a handy cover-up when she didn't want to have to think about what to wear or decided to go out in her sweats....

    She says "To force a female to remove her veil is just as subjugating as forcing her to cover." And yet, by her own admission, "Given the choice, I would never have embraced the niqab". She was coerced into a degrading position which she eventually embraced in order to feel some measure of self-esteem. It's a pretty classic case of the ego defence mechanism behind Stockholm syndrome. Note that she doesn't dress this way in the UK, despite being a practicing Muslim, reemphasizing the fact this is more about national culture than religion.

    "Implicit in any law that proscribes women’s dress lies the most sinister, ideologically myopic assumption that a woman cannot be trusted not to succumb to pressure to dress a certain way." It's quite sad that even someone who has been well-educated in a liberal country, isn't able to recognize how those pressures have molded her own thinking. I find her rationalizations completely bizarre, but the human mind is a curious, and seldom rational, place.

    I'll cite the whole article, for balance..
    It would only be irrational if she implicitly stated that her personal opinion on usage of the Niqab coincides with her opinion on the suggestion of banning Niqab. I think that she was more saying something like "I personally disagree with using he Niqab but i don't think it's fair to ban it". Which is possible rational position, even if linearly inconsistent.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  10. #270
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post
    It would only be irrational if she implicitly stated that her personal opinion on usage of the Niqab coincides with her opinion on the suggestion of banning Niqab. I think that she was more saying something like "I personally disagree with using he Niqab but i don't think it's fair to ban it". Which is possible rational position, even if linearly inconsistent.
    Did you read the whole article?
    She doesn't disagree. She did a complete 180.

    There is no rational position which can justify cutting oneself off from the world of experience by covering oneself from head to toe in uncomfortable and impractical reams of fabric. But how comforting, how necessary even, to believe that there is...once one is forced to do so. I've encountered this kind of distorted thinking over and over again, such that I no longer accept that people always know what is in their best interests. One has to be able to assess such matters objectively.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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