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  1. #251
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    I doubt this very much. I would think many of the schools there would be the same only segregated. Where a section of the school would have male teachers teaching male students and the other section would have female teachers teaching female students.
    Debrah angry! Debrah SMASH! *repeatedly slams fist on stone wall*

  2. #252
    shadow boxer strawberries's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    I doubt this very much. I would think many of the schools there would be the same only segregated. Where a section of the school would have male teachers teaching male students and the other section would have female teachers teaching female students.
    in saudia arabia some are segregated within the same school. some are schooled in separate institutions. girls in saudi arabia have been found to be schooled within poorer quality facilities, using outdated text books etc.

    there is a book called price of honour: muslim women lift the veil of silence by jan goodwin, which you might wish to read. it's well researched and illuminating.

    Shortcomings of the curriculum for girls

    The public education system treats males and females differently due to the gender-based expectations of society. This has led to a limited range of fields for female students in schools, universities, and colleges. What's more, girls' curricula have not been seriously revised for more than 20 years and textbooks have not been updated.

    "Without the introduction of new information that reflects developmental changes in society, the curriculum is not providing female students with the necessary skills to enhance their overall education and to find jobs," explained AlMunajjed.


    Lack of adequate teacher training

    Girls' education also suffers from a shortage of well-qualified teachers, despite the fact that the total number of female teachers in the public education system of education had increased to more than 200,000 in 2005-06.

    Saudi academics have expressed their criticism to the Ministry of Education about the performance of teachers and the need to formulate new programs for teaching.

    "Teachers lack frequent assessment and monitoring of the quality of their teaching performance and the education system is not providing sufficient incentives to teachers to upgrade their competencies; high academic qualifications are not part of the requirements and the concept of lifelong learning is missing," explained AlMunajjed.


    Limited fields of specialization and scientific research

    At the university level, the fields of education and training for women are limited, as the specializations do not correspond to the needs of the labor market. Science and technology, engineering and agriculture remain predominantly male territory.

    This limits Saudi women's potential for progress in an age that is increasingly oriented toward scientific and technological advancement.

  3. #253
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Debrah angry! Debrah SMASH! *repeatedly slams fist on stone wall*
    Hahaha! yes. Twill be hard for such things to happen.

  4. #254
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    But these women are spread out throughout the world with their own forms of not being able to actively choose their lifestyle. It would not be concentrated in the middle east. It is just highlighted there which would make it seem concentrated.
    It is like in some countries I went to Americans are viewed as violent rude people. This would be because the violent americans are constantly highlighted there when in actuality it is spread worldwide.
    I doubt this very much. I would think many of the schools there would be the same only segregated. Where a section of the school would have male teachers teaching male students and the other section would have female teachers teaching female students.
    Actually until the Taliban were removed from power in Afghanistan, during their reign it was illegal for girls and/or women to be educated.

    Visit The Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (RAWA) to read about women in Afghanistan then and now.
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
    — Richard P. Feynman

    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
    author unknown

  5. #255
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    While it is kind of a like goes without saying. Women are not even remotely expected to enter careers, so education is kind of something nice, like a dessert. Which leads to people not being that interested in investing on something tertiary. But the same thing can be said about a lot of aspects in education, engineering and finance is over empathized in Saudi Arabian higher education, while humanities are not.

    But really i don't see how Saudi Arabia is a justified example in this discussion, they are an entirely different entity which is isolated socially from most of the world, their fellow middle-easterners actually consider them "socially retarded fanatics" for their extra conservative stance, just as like Americans regard their Right wing Christians. They are in no way cultural representatives of the Muslims in France, or a good reference model.

    Likewise I would think twice before equating the mean height average of Eurasia with that of the Adriatic alps.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  6. #256
    shadow boxer strawberries's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post

    But really i don't see how Saudi Arabia is a justified example in this discussion, they are an entirely different entity which is isolated socially from most of the world, their fellow middle-easterners actually consider them "socially retarded fanatics" for their extra conservative stance. They are in no way cultural representative of the Muslims in France, or a good reference model.
    it's relevant because women wear such garments in SA. this is not an ordinary piece of clothing - there is a political/gendered context....this kind of clothing has baggage. it is also of note because of revivalist ultra-conservatism in SA (which is happening elsewhere too).

  7. #257
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberries View Post
    some are segregated within the same school. some are schooled in separate institutions. girls in saudi arabia have been found to be schooled within poorer quality facilities, using outdated text books etc.
    Then it would be the government's fault for doing such. What you talk about would happen in public schools. Lack of financial upbringing for the girl's schools from the government would cause such to happen. It is not surprising of course for such to give less attention to their upbringing as there could be many reasons why they won't finance such schools. We may only contemplate about the corruption within them. (or they probably just don't care)
    there is a book called price of honour: muslim women lift the veil of silence by jan goodwin, which you might wish to read. it's well researched and illuminating.
    Sounds interesting. I'll have a look into it.

  8. #258

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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Oh so just like black people were "separate but equal" back in the day? Right, that makes sense.
    They might have been seperate but they wherent equal, not entirely as a result of oppression either. I'm basing that view on my knowledge of Marcus Garvey and others. Not "old white guy" prejudice or anything.

  9. #259
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringstheory View Post
    Who is really being exploited? Who is really liberated? Her?



    or her?



    It's about perspective.
    Is it?

    Who's perspective, a mans or woman's perspective and religion?

    More like



    That's much better would you say, she can finally get some vitamin D
    She can finally express herself, show some emotion, body language, colour, energy, vibrancy, live, all those things that somehow got locked away, you know like a smile, a grin, a frown, anger, sadness, happiness, a personality, a wink and a blink!



    If women are conditioned to wear their hijab's and burqa's since birth to hide their face and bodies so comprehensively do you think it is oppression or freedom? What is liberation and what is freedom in this context really?

    Wearing a Burqa, covering the face and body so heavily is discrimination and demeaning to their self esteem not the other way round. France if they want to pass such a law they are entitled to do so. We are not living in the middle ages anymore or outer space or the ocean, unless the women are training to be astronauts maybe deep sea explorers, somehow I doubt their religion factors that into the equation...often!

    Its like saying you have to wear a paper bag over your head for life...would wearing a paper bag in western culture mean a positive thing? Then obviously wearing a burqa means respect, dignity and integrity doesn't it?


  10. #260
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberries View Post
    it's an interesting article, but it's written from the perspective of an educated, well-travelled woman who has been exposed to various cultures - she has assessed her options and made a reasoned choice about her lifestyle. i don't worry about women like her - i worry about impoverished, marginalised, uneducated women who have little concept of what it means to actively choose a lifestyle.
    (Re: also following references to Saudi Arabia, in particular)

    Right, but what does passing legislation in a Western nation that restricts the rights of a minority do to affect a non-Western nation that oppresses the whole population, the women even more so, with restrictive legislation? Two wrongs do not make a right, except in the delusional, symbol-reliant world of guesture politics.

    In both cases, a proportion of the population is being told by the state what they can and cannot wear entirely against their will and without adequate justification. I oppose the principle in both cases, and further oppose the ridiculously restrictive practices of all kinds directed specifically at women in Saudi Arabia, certain other Gulf states, and other nations where militant Islamism or tribal patriarchy have a strong influence, such as Afghanistan. It's good to be consistent here.

    Also, if this comment was referring to impoverished, marginalised, uneducated women living in the West (it didn't seem to be, as you then went on to discuss the situation in certain parts of the Middle East), should we be worrying about telling them what to wear, or how to address the causes of their impoverishment/marginalisation/lack of education?

    Further, has it been established, except on the basis of stereotyping presumption (I'm not saying yours, but others are defininitly doing it), that the small proportion of Muslim women dwelling in the West who adhere to extreme forms of veiling are doing it because they're marginalised, impoverished or uneducated, or that the two issues are in any way associated?

    further - burqas don't immunise women from commercial exploitation or obsessing over their appearance/superficiality. if you look at a place like saudi arabia - they have designer shopping/waxing/plastic surgery clinics. women pluck their eyebrows, wax their legs, buy crazy expensive skincare and wear makeup and clothing under their religious garb. as an example - chanel has stores in saudi arabia, UAE, bahrain, kuwait, lebanon and turkey.

    if we go back to saudi arabia - sure a woman can buy a chanel bag, but she may not vote, or drive, or leave the house without a male companion with her and she would have gone to a sub-par school compared to her brothers.
    Well, let's look at what this demonstrates:

    1) Personal values may influence choice of clothing (already established with regard to reason why Muslim women may veil themselves). However, clothing, where not chosen, does not influence personal values.

    2) When women are poorly educated and deprived of opportunity, yet have disposable income, superficial values, such as appearance, become particularly important to them.

    3) Outward oppression, in the form of being FORCED to hide herself from the world, does not prevent a woman from valuing herself, as expressed by personally pampering herself and attending to her appearance.

    4) If a woman is paying particular attention to her appearance, and no male other than her husband or family are able to see her, it can reasonably be inferred that she is doing much of it either i) for her own sake, or ii) to look good in front of other women; not for the sake of their relative ability to attract men, but to establish their position in the feminine social heirarchy. Perhaps a mixture of the two. It's unlikely to be for the sake of men, however; though the question of the husband putting pressure on her must remain open.

    5) There is a lot of Western economic investment in the Middle East. In countries that are particularly politically friendly to the West, commercialised, superficial, Western values are begining to gain a significant foothold.

    6) Saudi Arabia has particularly serious problems with giving women equitable civil rights. However, they are poltitically allied with the West for economic and geopolitical reasons, so they escape meaningful condemnation and sanction over this.

    Side note:
    This contrasts with Afghanistan, where similar issues related to women's rights (adjusted for war, lack of education and poverty) were touted as an entirely reasonable reason for invading, which convinced the gullible. Women's rights have suffered severely across Afghanistan since the invasion due to constant war, lack of legal protection or enforcement, and social instability. Rape and other forms of violence against women are on the increase and usually go unpunished. It seems that the best looking women living in the occupied areas are now allowed to stip off for beauty pageants, though...
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

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