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  1. #241
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes Alexis de Tocquveille noted famously the tendency for democracies to degenerate into "tyrannies of the majority". Hence one reason why he heavily stressed the importance of religious underpinnings for the long-term survival of any democracy.
    Can you elaborate on this further Peguy, particularly the bold? I get the general vibe of what you're saying but more details are necessary. Maybe an article?

  2. #242
    shadow boxer strawberries's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post

    ragashree's article provides a huge perspective shift here - that in the Western world, the body of a woman is often commercially exploited; and that this sort of "oppression" is the result of our adherence to our culture. This culture maybe viewed as "brainwashing" by Muslims, just as you might view theirs as "brainwashing".
    it's an interesting article, but it's written from the perspective of an educated, well-travelled woman who has been exposed to various cultures - she has assessed her options and made a reasoned choice about her lifestyle. i don't worry about women like her - i worry about impoverished, marginalised, uneducated women who have little concept of what it means to actively choose a lifestyle.

    further - burqas don't immunise women from commercial exploitation or obsessing over their appearance/superficiality. if you look at a place like saudi arabia - they have designer shopping/waxing/plastic surgery clinics. women pluck their eyebrows, wax their legs, buy crazy expensive skincare and wear makeup and clothing under their religious garb. as an example - chanel has stores in saudi arabia, UAE, bahrain, kuwait, lebanon and turkey.

    if we go back to saudi arabia - sure a woman can buy a chanel bag, but she may not vote, or drive, or leave the house without a male companion with her and she would have gone to a sub-par school compared to her brothers.

  3. #243
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneWithSoul View Post
    I think France should ban snoody arrogant prick faced assholes. Oh wait, that'd mean kicking everyone out of the country. bad idea?

    Blimey! how is this helpful? Way to generalise. What a bigoted opinion. It's also stupid.
    Last edited by Betty Blue; 07-19-2010 at 06:09 AM. Reason: clarity
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  4. #244
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    This ban is just about French men enforcing their social identity in a period of time when people feel threatened by cultural competition which is fueled by xenophobia, this is as old as human societies. It's a very reactionary impulse by the people, when they see something violating their cultural trends or power being threatened, the direct reaction is to limit or completely remove the influence and impact, with violence if necessary.

    It's the same brand of reasoning used by the KKK.

    Which went something along the lines of

    -When there are more blacks demographically in the South then white people, so from that we can conclude that they will have a potential for competing with traditional middle-class and upper class whites on all levels. Thus white people feel that their status is being threatened by a potential competitor. Some resolution must be in order to maintain the all important status quo, moving or acceptance is not a possible option. So what can be done? you have to resort to terror tactics, blackmail and prosecution to undermine and marginalize the Black populace in the South, to keep them from being able to participate actively in politics.

    At the current moment, the same thing is being conducted by ethnic Kyrgyz people against Uzbeks who under the myth of a illusion that the under-class of Uzbekistanis residing in their country, who are even in a more vurnruble conditions then themselves, are being favored by their own government, and somehow they are tied to their own state of miserable conditions, and thus should be up for elimination.

    But in France a prolific western nation, the phenomenon takes its expression in a more subtle form, in the shape of a public campaign against cultural symbols that are deemed "inappropriate" by French cultural standards. It's the French way of saying, "You are deviating too much, either get back in line or suffer the consequences". For someone who proposes egalitarianism, liberty, and all that nonsense they sure easily conform to the stereotype of the majority being afraid of a small minority of ultimately insignificant influence.

    If Burqas had been an issue at first hand, why was it not addressed earlier by the French, when Muslim Algerians first arrived in numbers. Surely on a span of 40-50 years it must have crossed someones mind?, if this was really a problem of out most importance, why was it not defined as a problem a few decades ago.

    After all if we go by the commonly accepted reason which underlines security reasons, when asset security technology was beginning to develop in the 1960s-1970's, burqa's and any sort of face concealing garment would have been banned. As immigrants wearing Burqas would have arrived with the waves of North african immigrants(the practice of wearing a Burqa is very common amongst southern Berbers). And at least back then the decision would have actually lent some air of legitimacy since the necessary technology and method to deal with disguised robbers and thieves would have not been sufficient, and thus facial identification would have proven necessary. But the main motivation for the banning here is not related to that, this whole issue coincides with a period in time when western people fear the great flood of barbaric brown people who bizarrely worship a desert god, that is far divorced from their own reality and the politicians are doing everything in their utmost to please the mobs of ignorant Frenchmen and exploit the situation to their own influences benefit. This is one of the oldest social mechanisms in the world. It has nothing to do with a perceived violation of national principles or female oppression (most likely not for most) as the Frenchmen would have you believe, it's a subconscious projection of commonly held sentiments that are being acted upon.

    To conclude this and give a final defining designation of this phenomenon: Politicized Xenophobia.

    On a personal note: There is really nothing that can be made about it save for discussing the legitimacy of this legislation.

    On another note: Immigrants, especially from none-European background were never cordoned and have never fully been accepted, even if there are historical ties between the nations they arrive from. Unfortunately there has always been some form of strong resistance towards integration of immigrants in France. In today's France, a great deal of immigrants have already been disposed of in ghettos where they live in poor conditions in designated low-cost housing area's, with very little opportunity to enter the job market and public life. So the best thing unintegrated immigrants can do is to use France as a financial platform to launch their own financial success in their respective countries and then return, after all financial opportunities is the number one cause of immigration.
    Last edited by ColonelGadaafi; 07-24-2010 at 11:02 AM.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  5. #245
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post
    This ban is just about French men enforcing their social identity in a period of time when people feel threatened by cultural competition which is fueled by xenophobia, this is as old as human societies.
    Yeah the goddamned frogs show the way!!

    Hoo-RAH!! Lets GET THEM!!!

    I propose a raid in which we steal ALL their clothes leaving nothing to wear but bikinis and speedos!!

    Edit: Oh, Oh!! And Crucifixes too!! They should wear those.
    Last edited by Survive & Stay Free; 07-19-2010 at 07:20 AM. Reason: NB comment

  6. #246
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    BTW I think the policing of motor cycle helmets, as in being compelled to wear one, is stupid, its the same as the policing of cyclists who dont wear helmets, let people take their life in their hands if they want, by the same logic motorcycling or cycling themselves should be banned as unsafe.

  7. #247
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chi'xer View Post
    Are there statistics available for rapes in nudist areas versus the rest of society where nudity is against the law?

    And again, only the niqab was banned.
    I've never heard of there being a difference and it doesn't make logical sense. Are you implying you think nudity is banned because it increases rape?
    Do you think the veil then decreases rape? so women are "asking for it" by dressing more scantily?

    Really, it's semi-rhetorical but also semi-genuine. I don't understand why one law is ok and one not, they seem like the same thing to me.
    -end of thread-

  8. #248
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I've never heard of there being a difference and it doesn't make logical sense. Are you implying you think nudity is banned because it increases rape?
    Do you think the veil then decreases rape? so women are "asking for it" by dressing more scantily?

    Really, it's semi-rhetorical but also semi-genuine. I don't understand why one law is ok and one not, they seem like the same thing to me.
    I've often thought that the logic that women should conceal themselves that men shouldnt be tempted to rape them is pretty unflattering towards men, properly understood, by the same logic too men should all be blind folded.

    Imagine the sort of society that would produce.

    The first time I saw a woman in traditional muslim garb I was really young and was shit scared that it was an honest to God ninja assasin like out of a story book, it was before ninja turtles when ninjas where just evil, to be honest I've grown up in a culture in which there's 101 Christian equivalents of this concealment of women, head dresses etc. only they've been pretty much forgotten by anyone but nuns, headscarf and shawls where common when I was a child and their disappearence from fashion is generational, much like men no longer wearing hats or shirts and people wearing hoodies to the office.

    Its also ironic that at a time when people want to attack religious concealments of the body its entered into popular dress again in the form of the hoodies which kids wear, which fufil a duel effect, for some people they inspire terror, for others they allow them to hide their own terror, like the blinkers that police horse wear at football matches.

  9. #249
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberries View Post
    i worry about impoverished, marginalised, uneducated women who have little concept of what it means to actively choose a lifestyle.
    But these women are spread out throughout the world with their own forms of not being able to actively choose their lifestyle. It would not be concentrated in the middle east. It is just highlighted there which would make it seem concentrated.
    It is like in some countries I went to Americans are viewed as violent rude people. This would be because the violent americans are constantly highlighted there when in actuality it is spread worldwide.
    if we go back to saudi arabia - sure a woman can buy a chanel bag, but she may not vote, or drive, or leave the house without a male companion with her and she would have gone to a sub-par school compared to her brothers.
    I doubt this very much. I would think many of the schools there would be the same only segregated. Where a section of the school would have male teachers teaching male students and the other section would have female teachers teaching female students.

  10. #250
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    ]
    I doubt this very much. I would think many of the schools there would be the same only segregated. Where a section of the school would have male teachers teaching male students and the other section would have female teachers teaching female students.
    Oh so just like black people were "separate but equal" back in the day? Right, that makes sense.
    -end of thread-

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