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  1. #221
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    No. As has already been pointed out (twice!) it is a cultural tradition, not a religious requirement.
    I'm aware. It's culture integrated with religion. And thus within the culture they believe they are being more religious by covering more of themselves.

    False. You don't know what you are talking about. I've just figured out who you are so this comes as no surprise.
    *sigh* And I thought it was obvious.
    I've talked to a few women wearing the burqa about the burqa. They would either say it is valued within the family to wear such or they are used to it and rather not go without it. This was when I was in egypt.
    Either way I don't think these women want to take off the burqa. Whether or not they were raised upon it, it is in their value system to not go without it and so they feel happier with it on.

  2. #222
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Conversely, is there a rational argument which can defend the necessity of banning it? Works both ways this one.
    No. You're wriggling out of the original issue which was calling into question my use of the term "brainwashing". If a persuasive argument cannot be made for their use (and I see you sidestepped that entirely) then what else does one call it?

    Where civil liberties are being restricted, the burden of proof rests more on the necessity for the law to be passed that restricts them than it does on allowing the freedom to continue.
    You think banning the veil represents an infringement of civil liberties, I think wearing one does. *shrug* It does come down to a question of perspective, as you say, and in a secular democracy it is the perspective of the majority that must be respected. 70% of French people are in support. So I really don't have anything to prove.

    I think the first set of questions are major criteria for assessing, in an ideology-free manner, the objective utility of a ban.
    This has already been discussed at length. You are just ignoring the points that have been made and banging on the same old drum.

    It devalues them as reasoning, autonomous beings in much the way as you're accusing others of doing to them; and your last couple of sentences give the game away when you talk about "ball and chain" and "barbaric practices".
    Nope. That's why I'm asking for some reasoning that doesn't consist of "I don't want to be raped by men who can't control themselves".
    Still waiting.

    I'm not denying the possibility, but I'm also not assuming that the norm for Muslim women is to be so weak willed or subservient that they cannot think for themselves in this.
    Then you really don't know very much about Islam. The very name means "Submission".
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #223
    Senior Member burymecloser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    If a persuasive argument cannot be made for their use (and I see you sidestepped that entirely) then what else does one call it?
    How is "I believe this is what God wants me to do" not a persuasive argument? How much more persuasive can an argument be? Surely nothing is more compelling than a moral or spiritual imperative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay
    in a secular democracy it is the perspective of the majority that must be respected.
    This is not true. Democracies are not made of elections. A meaningful democracy is a liberal democracy, with constitutionally-protected civil liberties for all groups, including minorities. Surely you would feel differently if the French voted to prohibit Muslims from voting or holding office, or even to permit their being sold as slaves. In a healthy liberal democracy, the will of the people does not always prevail, most notably in cases where it restricts the rights of minorities, and the ban on burqas is a textbook example of such a case.
    i just want to be a sweetheart

  4. #224
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burymecloser View Post
    How is "I believe this is what God wants me to do" not a persuasive argument? How much more persuasive can an argument be? Surely nothing is more compelling than a moral or spiritual imperative.


    This is true.
    Allegedly.

    PS. Don't try this at home kids!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    France took a stand. Cultures are supposed to progress and change along with the development of the declaration of human rights, our individual, societal, national and international awareness, not remain stubbornly to the past. Violations should not be appeased.
    Fifty-seven Islamic States, comprising the Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC), have publicly rejected the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

  6. #226
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    Liberal democratic religions accept freedom of religion, the separation of religion and the State and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    Totalitarian religions put apostates to death, impose the Caliphate by violence and propaganda and reject the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

  7. #227
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    I'm against this ban, wholeheartedly, EW!

    If a woman chooses to wear a burqa, then so she shall.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

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  8. #228
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    No. You're wriggling out of the original issue which was calling into question my use of the term "brainwashing". If a persuasive argument cannot be made for their use (and I see you sidestepped that entirely) then what else does one call it?
    I sidestepped? You're still sidestepping the points I've raised, which relate to how it's likely to achieve anything useful that is not better achieved some other way. If you want me to go into Islamic interpretations of this I can have a go, but as you appear to consider anyone who accepts Islamic teachings, ie Muslims, to have been brainwashed into holding the views that they do, and deny them validity on this basis, I see little point at this stage. Or is that not what you meant?

    You think banning the veil represents an infringement of civil liberties, I think wearing one does. *shrug* It does come down to a question of perspective, as you say, and in a secular democracy it is the perspective of the majority that must be respected. 70% of French people are in support. So I really don't have anything to prove.
    What on earth is that? The ad Populum fallacy is your last word on the possible infringment of minority rights? Come on, you can do better than that. If that's your strongest argument it's an argument for mob rule, the tyrany of the majority, et cetera. Healthy liberal democracies avoid this precisely because the rights of minorities are safeguarded against majority prejudice, and there is reasoned debate around this before they are taken away. The democratic principle alone safeguards nothing.

    Incidentally, do you support the death penalty for Britain? I believe the will of the majority would implement that without delay too.

    This has already been discussed at length. You are just ignoring the points that have been made and banging on the same old drum.
    Which points, where, address this properly? First you ignore the questions because you claim not to see their relevance, then when I explain why they are relevant you claim that they've been answered already, so you don't need to? You're still wriggling out of the burden of proof issue by the way. I still think it's on your side. I was specifically asking those questions in order to address it.

    Nope. That's why I'm asking for some reasoning that doesn't consists of "I don't want to be raped by men who can't control themselves".
    Still waiting.
    This is a gross-over simplification, though I don't doubt that there are many Muslims who believe this, especially those who are not particularly well educated in their faith. Incidentally, if this is in ANY way a valid fear, it is also a valid reason.

    Then you really don't know very much about Islam. The very name means "Submission".
    Thanks, I'm perfectly aware of this. Do you honestly think I'd be going into this topic if I didn't know something so basic? Theologically, the submission is to the deity, not to the opposite sex as you seem to be assuming. Muslim women may not always be well educated on this, but the basic position of the faith is of equality of the sexes before God. I can go into this further too if you'd like.

    Edit: ah, just spotted this, it's easy to lose track of things in this lengthy thread.
    Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay
    Untrue. It's very much an issue for millions of women who are forced to cover themselves up to symbolize their total submission to their male superiors and has been so for a long time prior to 9/11.
    As I thought, but incorrect if you're assuming that that has anything to do with the origins of the concept of "submission" in Islam. Have you ever actually read any Islamic texts? I don't mean propaganda about them, I mean actual original texts?
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

  9. #229
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    All government buildings in Canberra, the Capital of Australia, are now ringed with low reinforced concrete walls.

    We have built these walls, not because we are afraid of Church of England car bombs, but because we are afraid of the car bombs of a violent, political religion.

    Are we paranoid?

    No, because we have proof of our fears on a regular basis in our Criminal Courts where Islamic terrorists are regularly convicted of preparing to kill us in large numbers, and then are sentenced by the Judge to long terms in jail.

  10. #230
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Try to stay on topic, Victor, the debate is about the banning of the Burqa in France and issues surrounding that. The paranoia of the Australian authorities, and yourself, about Islamic terrorism, is in no way relevant to this. Also, I've seen an almost identical post already.
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

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